One item has been bugging me. In MESSAGES FROM EARTH the White Star goes into Jupiter's atmosphere. After it goes deep enough so the following Shadow ship can't overcome the planet's gravitation it heads back out only to be fired on by the AGAMEMNON, who is waiting outside the atmosphere. During the Earth-Minbari War earth ships were unable to lock on to Minbari ships and apparently were still unable to do so when Season Two began, per Sheridan's statement in S-2, ep-1. The White Star is based on Minbari & Vorlon tech so it fairly safe to assume it should would have the same, or better, stealth capability. Thus, I'm wondering how the Agamemnon was able to track the White Star?
-
The new B5TV.COM is here. We've replaced our 16 year old software with flashy new XenForo install. Registration is open again. Password resets will work again. More info here.
Messages from Earth
- Thread starter gangster
- Start date
KoshFan
Regular
Interesting question. A couple of related points: one, during the Earth Civil War Clark's ships seemed to be able to track the White Stars too. Second point: when the Minbari fighters came at B5 in "Points of Departure," Sheridan had to confirm with Ivanova that the station was using the same ol' sensor package, possibly implying that there is an upgrade, however uncommon.
Wouldn't a ship travelling through atmosphere leave a great 'wake' of turbulence behind it? Maybe they could assess where the White Star was from the turbulence, rather from locking onto the ship itself?
The same issue would not, of course, apply to a White Star travelling through space, hence the Earthforce inability to lock weapons on there.
Does that make sense?
The same issue would not, of course, apply to a White Star travelling through space, hence the Earthforce inability to lock weapons on there.
Does that make sense?
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Sensor locks are required when ships engage in space where you can't see very well, at a distance, and at relatively high speeds. (Because if you don't have a fix on the target that allows your computers to calculate where it will be by the time your energy blast or missle gets there, you're going to miss.) But under other circumstances (lower speeds, closer ranges, enemy ships sillohuetted against a planet or other lit object) you can fire weapons visually with a fair amount of success. (We see Ivanova do so on at least one occasion.)
The White Star is moving at relatively low speed, is visible against the clouds of Jupiter - doubly so since as Demon rightly points out it is creating turbulance and a "wake" effect and probably generating static electricity and other EM engery as it plows through the atmosopheric dust - and the Agamemnon is engaging at quite close range. In short they're in an ideal situation for hitting a target by visual aiming alone, without a sensor lock, so there's no contradiction between what's happening here and what happened in "Matters of Honor" or in the Minbari War, for that matter.
Regards,
Joe
The White Star is moving at relatively low speed, is visible against the clouds of Jupiter - doubly so since as Demon rightly points out it is creating turbulance and a "wake" effect and probably generating static electricity and other EM engery as it plows through the atmosopheric dust - and the Agamemnon is engaging at quite close range. In short they're in an ideal situation for hitting a target by visual aiming alone, without a sensor lock, so there's no contradiction between what's happening here and what happened in "Matters of Honor" or in the Minbari War, for that matter.
Regards,
Joe
I also took Sheridan's statement is S2, E1 to mean Minbari FIGHTERS. I believe his statement is "We could never lock onto their fighters." Ships bigger than a fighter may have been a different story, although during the E-M war, you'd probably be dead by the time you got a lock-on a Sharlin. ;-)
-Tim
-Tim
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
I thought he said "ships", but you may be right. Whatever stealth system they used may not have worked on something as large as a ship - or it may be that war ships are inherently so big that you can always target them visually with a fair chance of success. Fighters would definitely be more of a challenge since they are smaller, harder to see, faster and more manueverable.
Regards,
Joe
Just checked. Sheridan did say "ships."
And I have a small nitpick with your "visual shooting" in this episode, Joe, because the Agamemnon can not enter an atmosphere, even the fringes, so, as the esp shows, had to be outside the atmosphere. Given how far out fringes of Jupiter's atmosphere extend, the Agamemnon would have had to have a "lock" to spot the White Star in the first place and then would be much too far away to do more than shoot at "to whom it may concern." :devil:
PillowRock
Regular
However, the White Star being in an atmosphere (particularly a relatively dense one) could well create an effect not unlike a submarine being depth charged. That is to say that shock waves caused by explosions in the area could very well be enough to "sink" the target ship. The Aggy may not have needed to score a direct hit on the White Star to destroy it, in direct contrast to space battles where there isn't a medium for transmitting shock waves (besides the debris of the oxplosion itself). Kinda, sorta close to the target, which would not be remotely good enough against a fighter in the vacuum of space, might be good enough to get the job done against a ship in an atmosphere.
If I recall the episode well, I seem to remember that the White Star was visible from the pov of the Agamemnon, so manual fire would be an option. Whether or not this is actually physically correct I don't now, but hey c'mon: this is fiction
Agree, it is fiction but nice to nitpick every once in a while.
A_M_Swallow
Regular
Sheridan aim was to trick the Shadow Ship into following him. So he may have swiched the Whitestar's jammers off.
In "In to the Fire" the Earthforce ships had major problems tracking Sheridan's fleet in hyperspace, although they did have a sensor upgrade and most of the ships were not Whitestars.
sleepy_shadow
Regular
In space combat, "visual" should be preferably read as "employing passive sensors of visible light". This could mean anything from "bare eyes" to "gun camera with proper telescopic optics".
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
The sensor problem we've been talking about involves relatively primative Earth ships vs. Minbari vessels. The White Stars are primarily Minbari tech with some Vorlon elements. The situation in the Jupiter fight is a Shadow ship - of a type that can and has engaged 100% Vorlon ships - chasing a mostly Minbari vessel. I don't think Sheridan had to turn off anything for the Shadow ship to track the White Star.
Everybody has trouble tracking everybody in hyperspace, and in getting a weapons lock. That is one of several excellent reasons that nobody in his right mind tries to fight in hyperspace. Since the White Star in this case was not in hyperspace and Agamemnon was able to track her, I'm not sure I see the connection to "Into the Fire".
Regards,
Joe
DaRkEnEdStAr
Regular
Thats deep ...
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
In Endgame, General Lefcourt says the same thing: That fighting in hyperspace would be a disaster for both sides.
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
Of course, that was a Shadow vessel--one of the First Ones--and not one of the younger races.
In addition, the shot from the shadow vessel wasn't direct; it was a sweeping motion up. And apparently, the Shadow vessel didn't even know that Keffer was there for a while, or before earlier in the season.
In addition, the shot from the shadow vessel wasn't direct; it was a sweeping motion up. And apparently, the Shadow vessel didn't even know that Keffer was there for a while, or before earlier in the season.
sleepy_shadow
Regular
Alternatively, it didn't care. I mean... there's a house fly following you. Do you care?
However, should you notice *this* house fly is recording information about you... you might care.
------
Also, one should remember... a Shadow vessel would not be "one of them". Merely one of their tools.
So alternatively, it might have been confused. It might have transmitted the information and waited for a command. Only when a command came back telling "destroy it"... would it act.
However, should you notice *this* house fly is recording information about you... you might care.
------
Also, one should remember... a Shadow vessel would not be "one of them". Merely one of their tools.
So alternatively, it might have been confused. It might have transmitted the information and waited for a command. Only when a command came back telling "destroy it"... would it act.
