Lennier's Fate

[glamourweaver]

Has any of the semi-canon publications covered the ultimate fate of Lennier after he fled at the end of season five? All I know is he's dead by "Sleeping in Light."

My theory was that he'd end up giving his life to somehow save David from the Keeper. As far as we know from the series there's no way to save someone once the Keeper's bonded, but from JMS's comments it seems David only spends a limited period of time bonded... and it didn't SOUND like David dies; especially considering from what I know about the Centauri-Prime trilogy David's "betrayal" comes before "Sleeping in Light," and David is still alive then.

 

[Jan]

Has any of the semi-canon publications covered the ultimate fate of Lennier after he fled at the end of season five? All I know is he's dead by "Sleeping in Light."

It's not officially canon because it never showed up onscreen but in the earlier draft of "The Path of Sorrows" Crusade episode (where Lyta was still supposed to have a guest spot) it's heavily intimated that Lennier died with her during the Telepath War.

Jan

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

David Sheridan gets the Keeper in 2278, the year of Sheridan's time jump in "WWE" and the framing sequence from In the Beginning. By 2281 ("SiL") he's in Ranger traiing and long-since Keeper-free. The details are given in The Centauri Trilogy. Lennier is not involved. In fact, he is almost certainly already dead.

...the earlier draft of "The Path of Sorrows" Crusade episode (where Lyta was still supposed to have a guest spot) it's heavily intimated that Lennier died with her during the Telepath War.

Well, given that we see a single Minbari fighting off Psi Corps troops in the background of one shot, followed by Lyta's final line, "Lennier!" a few seconds later, I'd say that's more than heavily intimated.

Even though the changes to that epsiode mean that the business of Lyta being the Trojan Horse who got the rebels into Psi Corps HQ to blow it up is no longer canon, it is still possible that she (and Lennier) were still present at the event.

In any case, JMS has confirmed that Lennier's death comes within that period. When I was trying to pin down the dates of the Teep War and the Rangers pilot I asked JMS, as a side issue, if Lennier died just before the TV movie. His answer (which I can't find on JMSNews at the moment because the words are too common) was "Right around then, yeah" or something very close to that.

Regards,

Joe

 

[glamourweaver]

Is that earlier draft available online?

 

[Jan]

Well, given that we see a single Minbari fighting off Psi Corps troops in the background of one shot, followed by Lyta's final line, "Lennier!" a few seconds later, I'd say that's more than heavily intimated.

Yeah, true. But we don't SEE their bodies. I mean, just because there was this huge explosion...

Is that earlier draft available online?

Hopefully not as that would be highly illegal. What I described is from my script collection.

It's also mentioned in the Crusade Writer's Bible that both Lennier and Lyta were killed during the telepath crisis of 2265.

Jan

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Is that earlier draft available online?

Legitimately? No.

Illegitimately? Don't know, but I hope not.

Given the way JMS has approached the B5 script books, I imagine the original draft will appear in the Crusade volume when he eventually gets around to it.

Edit ... and I see Jan beat me to it. As usual!

 

[Jan]

Given the way JMS has approached the B5 script books, I imagine the original draft will appear in the Crusade volume when he eventually gets around to it.

When the time gets closer I'm planning on asking him in the newsgroup if he'll include at least one first draft and one shooting draft of one of the Crusade episodes (similar to the way he did with "Matters of Honor" in Volume 5) as an illustration of the changes that had to be made due to the real life actor difficulties as well as the TNT 'suggestions'. "Path" might be a good one with the change from Lyta to Allison (I think that was her name) and because JMS mentioned at a convention that TNT *hated* "Path" because they claimed that "Nobody wants all that backstory." I've never gone through and compared the different drafts I have to see what changes were made from one draft to another.

Edit ... and I see Jan beat me to it. As usual!

By seconds, I think, GH. Sorry 'bout that.

Jan

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Is that earlier draft available online?

Well, everybody's answered this one. I don't have a copy of the script myself, and have never even seen the whole thing. When the question came up 5 or 6 years ago someone I know (not Jan) who had bought a legit copy at a convention typed out just the couple of relevant pages into her computer and e-mailed them to me.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Jan]

When the question came up 5 or 6 years ago someone I know (not Jan) who had bought a legit copy at a convention typed out just the couple of relevant pages into her computer and e-mailed them to me.

In that case, you probably had it before I did, Joe. At some point I'd typed up some of the relevant points, too, but I couldn't locate the file last night. As I recall, there wasn't much difference in dialogue. The biggest difference was the scene where Mattheson is leaving the Psi Corps facility and we see a Minbari fighting (from the back only) and Lyta calls Lennier's name just before the shuttle gets away and the building explodes.

Jan

 

[KoshN]

When the time gets closer I'm planning on asking him in the newsgroup if he'll include at least one first draft and one shooting draft of one of the Crusade episodes (similar to the way he did with "Matters of Honor" in Volume 5) as an illustration of the changes that had to be made due to the real life actor difficulties as well as the TNT 'suggestions'.

I'd love it if he did that for all of the Crusade scripts, and make it four volumes instead of two.

"Path" might be a good one with the change from Lyta to Allison (I think that was her name) and because JMS mentioned at a convention that TNT *hated* "Path" because they claimed that "Nobody wants all that backstory."

Heh, idiots! Really though, this was when TNT was trying to get everybody so fed-up that they'd just quit, so it might have been pure malice. When it comes to TNT-Atlanta, it's very hard to tell the difference between malice and stupidity, and it was probably equal measures of both, truckloads of both..

TPoS is one of my favorite Crusade episodes.

I've never gone through and compared the different drafts I have to see what changes were made from one draft to another.

That'd be interesting to do. I only have one version of 11 of the 13 filmed scripts (no "Ruling from the Tomb" or "Appearances and Other Deceits"), so it's not something I can do.

Here's what I have:

Racing the Night - Final Draft 6/24/98
The Needs of Earth - Blue Revisions 7/30/98 (FULL)
The Memory of War - Final Draft 7/9/98
The Long Road - Final Draft 10/20/98
Visitors from Down the Street - Final Draft 7/10/98+Blue Revisions 8/26/98
The Well of Forever* - Final Draft 8/10/98+Blue Revisions 9/9/98+Pink Revisions 10/12/98+Yellow Revisions 10/15/98
Each Night I Dream of Home - Final Draft 8/19/98+Blue Revisions 9/8/98+Pink Revisions 9/9/98
Patterns of the Soul* - Final Draft 8/11/98+Blue Revisions 11/11/98(FULL)+Pink Revisions 11/23/98
The Path of Sorrows - Final Draft 8/31/98+Blue Revisions 10/12/98 (FULL)+Pink Revisions (11/6/98 (FULL)+Yellow Revisions 11/12/98
The Rules of the Game - Final Draft 10/12/98
War Zone - Final Draft 10/19/98


Unfilmed:
Value Judgments* - Final Draft 1/12/99

* Autographed amd Stamped, from Fiona Avery.

Which ones do you have? How do you know which are the "shooting scripts" (other than by comparing it to the episode, line for line)? Do they stamp it "Released for Shooting" or something?

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

The biggest difference was the scene where Mattheson is leaving the Psi Corps facility and we see a Minbari fighting (from the back only) and Lyta calls Lennier's name just before the shuttle gets away and the building explodes.

I can't find my file either ! But that is exactly the way I remember the scene. (Seeing the Minbari only from the back, of course, would allow them to use any anonymous extra with a slapdash Minbari headbone, rather than bring in - and pay for - Bill Mumy to do a half a day of detailed prosthetics and costume fittings for the few seconds of screentime needed. Just the brief glimpse and Lyta calling his name was all that was needed to establish Lennier's presence. Rather like Fiona Avery's Bester script, where the conversation between the Star Fury pilot and Garibaldi is seen and heard only from the pilot's perspective until the last shot - where we just see "Garibaldi's" hand hang up the phone.)

Regards,

Joe

 

[Jan]

I can't find my file either !

It's a conspiracy! Somebody's been stealing our files!

But that is exactly the way I remember the scene. (Seeing the Minbari only from the back, of course, would allow them to use any anonymous extra with a slapdash Minbari headbone, rather than bring in - and pay for - Bill Mumy to do a half a day of detailed prosthetics and costume fittings for the few seconds of screentime needed. Just the brief glimpse and Lyta calling his name was all that was needed to establish Lennier's presence. Rather like Fiona Avery's Bester script, where the conversation between the Star Fury pilot and Garibaldi is seen and heard only from the pilot's perspective until the last shot - where we just see "Garibaldi's" hand hang up the phone.)

Yeah, after you've watched the show a few times you start to see how well JMS could avoid speaking parts. Probably a good part of the reason why the budget was acheivable.

I'd love it if he did that for all of the Crusade scripts, and make it four volumes instead of two.

That would be kind of cool.

Which ones do you have? How do you know which are the "shooting scripts" (other than by comparing it to the episode, line for line)? Do they stamp it "Released for Shooting" or something?

I'd have to drag them out and look to see exactly which revisions I've got. At least three for each script and sometimes more. Probably because of the 'notes' situation AND the fact that they were still creating the foundation sets and effects for the show, I've got more white pages drafts than there were with B5. One of the ways that JMS helped with the planning ahead was to issue the scripts as early as possible so that the props and construction and effects crews would know what would be required of then.

No, there was no version marked shooting script but the one with the multi-colored pages was the shooting script. I know that different crew members did things differently but this one would generally take the Final Draft and then insert the colored pages where they belonged.

Jan

 

[Jan]

Replying to myself since it's several hours since I posted the above. I'm home now and pulled out my script book for "The Path of Sorrows". What I've got is:

First Draft (all white pages) 8/18/98
Final Draft (all white pages) 8/30/98
Blue Revisions (all blue pages) 10/12/98 FULL (I gather that sometimes they only issue
the revised pages and other times they issue the full script in colored pages)
'Shooting script' which has Pink Revisions 11/6/98 FULL with Yellow Revisions
11/12/98 pages.

According to the cast list, Lyta was in the script through the Blue Revision. In the shooting script, there's a notation that the scene is deleted (70) where we see the Minbari and Lyta shouts Lennier's name.

Jan

 

[KoshN]

Yeah, after you've watched the show a few times you start to see how well JMS could avoid speaking parts. Probably a good part of the reason why the budget was acheivable.

Still, when it came to uses of B5 cast in Crusade (e.g. Bill Mumy in The Path of Sorrows, and Jerry Doyle voiceover in Value Judgments, even in those small parts), I wish they would have been able to splurge and get the B5 actors in there. IMHO, it would have added a great, genuine and high quality feel to those episodes. I'm not saying to put B5 characters into a lot of Crusade episodes as a gimmick to increase the fan appeal, but rather to use a B5 actor for their B5 character in an episode, when it's necessary to the story. It'd be like finding an unexpected diamond in the rough, biting a gold piece and determining that yes, this is real gold. It'd be an unexpected and very nice surprise.

That would be kind of cool.

I hope he goes into more detail in the Crusade scriptbooks than he did with the B5 ones. After all, there were only 16 episodes (13 filmed), and it wouldn't be as big a deal for fans to collect all the scripts even if each book covered half as many scripts.

I'd have to drag them out and look to see exactly which revisions I've got.

I'd be especially interested to see the First Draft, Final Draft and final revision (color) and dates you have to all of the Crusade episodes.

 

[Jan]

I'd be especially interested to see the First Draft, Final Draft and final revision (color) and dates you have to all of the Crusade episodes.

Aw, Mac...those are the heavy notebooks! Okay...here goes:

101-The Needs of Earth: Writer's, First, Final, Blue (FULL)
102-The Memory of War: First, Final, Blue (FULL)
103-Racing the Night: Writer's, First, Final, Blue (FULL)
104-Visitors from Down the Street: First, Final/Blue
105-Each Night I Dream of Home: First, Final, Final/Blue/Pink
106-The Well of Forever: First, Final, Final/Blue/Pink/Yellow
107-The Long Road: Writer's, First, Final/Blue
108-War Zone: First, Final/Blue
109-The Path of Sorrows: First, Final, Blue (FULL), Final/Blue/Pink/Yellow
110-Patterns of the Soul: First, Final, Final/Blue/Pink
111-Ruling From the Tomb: First, Final/Blue/Pink
112-The Rules of the Game: First, Final/Blue/Pink
113-Appearances and Other Deceits: First, Final, Final/Blue/Pink
114-Unproduced-To the Ends of the Earth: Final, Final/Blue
115-Unproduced-Value Jugments: Final
116-Unproduced: Final

In the B5 scripts you very seldom saw pages of any other color except white and blue.

Jan

 

[KoshN]

Minor nit-pick:

116-Unproduced-End of the Line: Final.

Right?

ps. If I had all those, I'd be a happy camper.

 

[Jan]

116-Unproduced-End of the Line: Final.

Right?

Oops. Yeah, right.

ps. If I had all those, I'd be a happy camper.

Oh, I am. At some point I'd really like to do a side-by-side comparison of at least the first draft and the shooting script but so far time doesn't allow. The other really cool aspect is the notes written on the scripts of what would be needed. These came from a member of the Art Dept. so there are notes about props and set dressing and stuff. Fun!

Jan