I Wonder How JMS Feels About CC.

[KoshN]

Branching off from I Miss Talia - JoeD Post - 02/21/04 11:19 AM ...

I never believed the Bester was telling the truth about Talia being dissected. Unfortunately I also don't think there is any way to restore "Talia 1.0", unless Kosh was thoughtful enough to leave his VCR recording of her personality behind. (I've always thought that this was created as a way of getting Talia back if Andrea hadn't quit the show.)

In the final volume of the Telepath Trilogy Garibaldi ponders Talia's fate. It is the 2270s and he's the enormously rich head of Edgars-Garibaldi, has influence at the IA and in EarthGov, and has seen his one-time nemesis, Psi Corps, destroyed. Yet for all his wealth and power he's never been able to find out what happened to Talia after she left B5 or uncover even a trace of her.

That's pretty ambiguous, but that's where JMS left it.

I think he was a little ticked off at Andrea and what he saw as her non-team-player attitude when she quit, and he was happy both to see her go and to arrange her exit in a way that made her ever returning very unlikely.

But things change over time, ...

If JMS may be ticked off at Andrea, I wonder how he feels about CC. Andrea's exit was handled very well, but CC's did a LOT more damage. CC's behavior was the height of "non-team-player attitude" and deception.

 

[Strifeguard]

I don't know anything about "hard feelings" related to Andrea's leaving, but I was under the impression that CC never intended to leave the show, and rather, TNT more-or-less forced her out.

IIRC, she was on vacation in Europe (or going on vacation, or something that had required planning and forethough) and TNT basically said "We can't wait for CC to get back from vacation, we're filming without her..." Granted, this was AFTER B5 had already gone on hiatus, so another month or so shouldn't really have made a difference...

 

[KoshN]

I don't know anything about "hard feelings" related to Andrea's leaving, but I was under the impression that CC never intended to leave the show, and rather, TNT more-or-less forced her out.

IIRC, she was on vacation in Europe (or going on vacation, or something that had required planning and forethough) and TNT basically said "We can't wait for CC to get back from vacation, we're filming without her..." Granted, this was AFTER B5 had already gone on hiatus, so another month or so shouldn't really have made a difference...

Well, that's a new one that I've never heard before.

IIRC, they were all at a con. in Blackpool in the Season 4/5 break, and CC had said she would be on board for Season 5, but hadn't signed the contract extension as the other actors had, and the deadline passed without her signing it. Like Talia, she thought she was being underutilized, and that there wouldn't be enough for her to do in Season 5. Then, she said she was fired, but later admitted she quit. It turned out that she wanted time off to do movies, but still wanted full pay. That would have required renegotiation with all the other actors.

Because of all this, scripts that JMS already had done, with CC in them, as commander of the station, had to be scrapped, a new character had to be cast, and a whole new teep arc cobbled together at the last minute, with CC's bits going to other characters.

Compared to that, Andrea leaving was a non-event.

 

[Shaal Mayan]

I for one hope that whatever aniomisty?? JMS and Claudia may have had at one time is cleared up between them .I would like to see Claudia in the new B5 project whatever it maybe and I wouldn't her to lose out on a possible job prospect because an old issue and hard feelings.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Since something I wrote started this thread...

1) I indicated that JMS was annoyed with Andrea at the time she left, but noted that (a) she participated in the DVD extras (which JMS probably could have prevented it he were still or had ever been seriously angry with her) and (b) that time has passed and the situation may be different now. (JMS once wrote that Andrea thought that any episode she appeared in should be completely about Talia. Presumably this would not be an issue for a one-shot new project, and therefore no bone of contention.)

Strifeguard:

The version of events you've heard regarding CC has very little connection to reality, up to and including the fact that their contracts were with Warner Bros., not TNT, and that it wasn't some arbitrary start date decided on while they were on hiatus but a drop-dead, "we have to start shooting by X if we're going to make our contractually required air date of Y" date that Claudia deliberately let go by. KoshN's account is a good shorthand version of the actual events and their effect on S5.

After CC backed off her original claim that she'd been fired and admitted she quit, the comments on both sides throttled back a good deal. JMS has been very complimentary about Claudia in his commentary tracks and interviews, and she's obviously been happy to contribute to the discs. So I think that situation is probably OK at this point, possibly better than JMS's relationship with Jerry Doyle after the recent kerfuffle over Doyle's independent attempt to revive B5. But time (and money) heals all wounds and if someone dangles a really tempting role (and paycheck) in front of any or all of the actors, I'm sure they'll agree to appear in any future B5 project that JMS does. And I'm equally sure that JMS will use whichever characters best serve the story he wants to tell - without regard to how he personally feels about a given actor. These folks are all grown-ups and all professionals. Also none of them are superstars. When you're an actor named Bruce Willis or an executive producers named Steven Speilberg or an actress named Nicole Kidman you may be in a position to indulge your personal whims in who you do and don't work with, and which projects you do or don't accept when offered. When you're Jerry Doyle or J. Michael Straczynski or Claudia Christian you probably take a good job when it's offered.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Bester]

Because of all this, scripts that JMS already had done, with CC in them, as commander of the station, had to be scrapped, a new character had to be cast, and a whole new teep arc cobbled together at the last minute

[sarcasm]Which explains why most of the story in Season 5 is of such high quality[/sarcasm]

 

[grumbler]

I thought at the time (and nothing posted since seems to contradict this) that the main issue in CC leaving was a failure of communications, coupled with a time crunch. CC wanted to be able to do a movie, and needed WB's written assurance that she could get the time off from the series. JMS promised her that he would make it happen, but could put nothing in writing. WB and TNT wouldn't put it in writing (at least in time to meet the signing deadline). The restructured pay package on residuals was less lucrative, and Claudia felt she needed to do the movie to keep her head above water. Finally, she was changing agents and needed the new contract to be signed under the aegis of her new agent.

In the end, time simply wasn't there to complete the negotiations needed to get a contract amenable to both CC and WB/TNT. So, she walked. So would I if I were in her place, believing what she believed (and so, probably, would you).

These people are professionals, and they need to make their decisions as professionals. JMS was miffed at the time (espcially as he had gone ahead and planned out the fourth season with her in mind) , but I am sure in retrospect he could see that CC was NOT lying when she said that she intended to remain for season 5, but that events simply overtook that decision. I think her appearance on, and mood in, the season 1 commentaries should put to rest any fears that either she or JMS would find working together again very hard.

If anyone is REALLY to blame for all of this, it is the people who made PTEN collapse and the fifth season move to TNT. Had B5 gone ahead for the 5th season on PTEN, then CC's existing contract would still have been valid and she would have been in season 5.

 

[AnlaShokGrey]

But time (and money) heals all wounds and if someone dangles a really tempting role (and paycheck) in front of any or all of the actors, I'm sure they'll agree to appear in any future B5 project that JMS does. And I'm equally sure that JMS will use whichever characters best serve the story he wants to tell - without regard to how he personally feels about a given actor.

Hey, if he was able to overcome any bad feelings he had about Robert Foxworth (who appeared in Jeremiah this past season), I'm sure we can count on things being smoothed over between JMS and Claudia (who is more important to any future B5 story than Robert Foxworth was to Jeremiah).

Aisling

 

[vacantlook]

I have always interpreted the events of CC's departure very much in the same way grumbler does. Every statement I've read on both sides of the issue seem to me like Claudia wanted to do whatever movie that was but the only way that movie's studio would cast her is if she could get a written statement from the folks of B5 and WB that she could indeed have the time off to film the movie. JMS's oral word wasn't enough to satisfy the movie's people but he wouldn't or couldn't give a written statement guaranteeing Claudia the time off. It seems that a time crunch became an issue and I think the whole problem just boils down to a lot of miscommunication on both sides.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Unfortunately the "poor communications/misunderstanding/nobody's at fault" theory of Claudia's departure doesn't match the known facts:

1. The only "time crunch" was one Claudia created herself. When S4 ended, and before she had a movie offer, she was the only one of the cast who did not sign an extension on her original contract to cover the negotiation period with TNT. She did this before she had any movie offer, and told other cast and crew members that she was doing it for business reasons of her own, but that she still intended to return for S5 if the negotiations with TNT were successful. By refusing to sign the extension, she ceased to be an employee of Warner Bros. as soon as production wrapped on "SiL". (The TV movies Thirdspace and In the Beginning were covered by one-shot contracts separate from the series contracts.) This immediately makes hash of Claudia's original claim that she was fired. You can't fire someone who doesn't work for you.

When the TNT deal was done all of the actors had a deadline by which they had to sign new contracts. This was necessary because everyone was working backwards from TNT's plan to launch the 5th season in January 1998. That meant that shooting had to start on "x" day, pre-production on "y" day and writing had to commence pretty much immediately. That, in turn, meant everyone involved had to know which actors/characters would be available to them.

Claudia had an absolute deadline. She knew it, her agent knew it. It may be that one or both mistakenly thought the fact that she was already in "SiL" meant that she couldn't be replaced, but that's not a "miscommunication", that's an error on their part.


2. No one was asked to give up residuals, or accept less, nor would the residual payments have any such immediate affect on Claudia's income that she had to take a movie right then to compensate for "lost" income.

The contracts were somewhat different than the PTEN contracts because Screen Actors Guild rules differentiate between "Big Four" network shows, first run syndication and "netlet" (UPN/WB) shows, permium and basic cable. TNT came under the basic cable union formulas. Residuals for all shows are paid out over a declining scale - the first rerun pays "x", the next "y", the next "z", which each payment being less than the last. With network shows and first run syndication the residual payments are "front loaded" with higher payments initially followed by a rapid drop and therefore they are used up that much more quickly. Basic cable residual payments are lower initially, drop at a slower rate and pay out over a longer time. But they still end up at the same total dollar figure. Only S5's residuals would come under the new rules, and S5 wouldn't go into "stripped" reruns for nearly two years. In the meantime Claudia would be receiving residuals under the syndication formula, with its higher initial payout, for S1 through S4. So how does that make doing a movie during S5 an "urgent economic necessity".

3. Claudia's time off. Nobody refused to put Claudia's time off in writing. Warner Bros. would have been happy to write her a contract for 17 or 18 or however many episodes she would be available to do, and that would have satisfied whatever studio was producing her movie. That deal was offered to her. The problem was that if the studio was only going to get her for 18 episodes by contract, then they were only going to pay her for 18 episodes. Claudia wanted to be paid for 22, as per her normal contract. JMS urged her to sign the standard 22 episode contract, and assured her that when the time came he would simply write Ivanova out of the necessary episodes - something he had done for other actors in previous seasons. (Ever wonder why Vir became ambassador to Minbar, or Delenn made so many trips home that we never saw in the early seasons?) The studio couldn't complain, because they couldn't dictate which stories he told or which characters he used to tell them. As long as the contract gave them first call on an actor's services, they had to pay the actor whether or not he or she was used in a given episode.

Here's the rub: Claudia and her agents said that wasn't good enough for the movie producers. WB said not only did they not want to pay her 22 episode's salary for 18 episode's work but they legally couldn't because to do so would be to give her a de facto raise in her per-episode rate - and that would violate the "most favored nation" clause in the other actors' contracts.

When the drop-dead date for signing the contract to get re-hired to work on Babylon 5 came and went, Claudia left Blackpool and neither she nor her agent contacted Warner Bros., despite JMS's having told her that she really did have to give answer or the door would close. Jeff Conaway contacted Claudia the Monday after the Friday deadline, on his own and without any official authority, and begged her to call the studio to see if there was any chance of her returning to the show. She neither called herself (which, in fairness, would not have been normal procedure, that's what agents are for) nor had her manager call. So she was out.

The only "miscommunication" may have been Claudia's inability to understand TV contracts (actors are notoriously bad businesspeople) and her agent's belief that Warner Bros. would have to give in because Claudia had already filmed "SiL". But any agent worth his or her salt (and backed by a legal and contracts department staffed by people with working brains) should have known that WB couldn't agree to her terms and she was either going to have to accept 18 episodes work for 18 episodes pay in writing, or 22 episodes pay and trust JMS for the rest. Given how common it is for producers to write major characters out for a episodes to let them do outside projects (which can then help get publicity for the show) I find it hard to believe that the movie producers really wouldn't accept an off-the-record assurance from the executive producer and head (almost sole) writer. But even if this was the case then Claudia should have accepted being paid for the actual work she did on B5 if the movie were really that important to her.

The fact is that she thought her character was under-used and she wanted out - as she later said in interviews. The whole series of contradictory "explanations" ("I was fired", "They wanted me to take a pay cut", "I would have had to give up residuals" [If true, why did the other actors agree to this violation of the SAG basic agreement?]) was really designed to keep the fans on her side once the news got out. None of Claudia's ever changing stories at the time held together very well, or even made much sense, whereas JMS's account was consistent, coherent and backed by comments from other people who were at Blackpool on the weekend in question. It wasn't until Claudia finally admitted that she quit that her account rang true.

Regards,

Joe

 

[ElScorcho]

The fact is that she thought her character was under-used...

I must have been watching a different show than she was. Ivanova was one of the main characters on the show (which implicitly stated she was one of the only people who could have replaced the Captain in the Shadow War) and would have had an integral part in the telepath arc. Did she think she was supposed to be the star of the show?

 

[grumbler]

It is always fun to rehash the CC departure!

Joe, you have basically restated JMS's position, but the miscommunication here seems to be that CC stated that she would take the 18 episode contract and the WB said no, that she had to take the 22 episode contract because that is what TNT wanted. JMS says that she wanted to be paid for 22 episodes, she says that she did not (at least, that is the stance I understand each of them to be taking).

Now, if that really was the rub, then someone (maybe someone other than CC or JMS, in fact) wasn't clearly communicating.

As JMS noted, time was tight, and the outcome was unfortunate, but that's the way things work in business.

And quite frankly, the scramble to figure out "what to do" in Season 5 hurt the show much worse than CC's departure did. The Lochley charactor wasn't very well-fleshed out for quite a while, and the first two episodes were not up to B5's standards.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

I must have missed the post where CC claimed that WB insisted on both paying her for 22 episodes and using her in 22 episodes - something they had never demanded of any other actor in the show's history (with the possible exception of O'Hare and Boxleitner.) Most of the actors didn't even have guaranteed minimum numbers of episodes that they'd be in by contract until year three. But OK, let's agree that Claudia asserted this at some point. The fact that she later said, "I wasn't being used enough, all I got to do was park spaceships, I wanted to quit and I did" pretty much makes all her earlier rationalizations (when she was trying to make herself look good not to alienate fans and make JMS look bad for reasons I don't understand) moot.

If it sounds like my reasonably objective analysis is the same as what JMS said at the time, that's because what he said at the time was the truth and what Claudia said wasn't. (Among other things JMS's account is supported by the way that the SAG basic agreement - which I've read - works, by what other cast and crew members have said and by common sense. Claudia's various accounts aren't even supported by one another.)

And quite frankly, the scramble to figure out "what to do" in Season 5 hurt the show much worse than CC's departure did. The Lochley charactor wasn't very well-fleshed out for quite a while, and the first two episodes were not up to B5's standards.

Now there is truly a distinction without a difference. Hello! The "scramble" and the weakness of Lochley and the early episodes were a direct result of Claudia's 11th hour decision to go back on her word and leave the show. This is known in some circles as "cause" and "effect". But I'd say she's responsible for much more than the minor problems you mention. The whole telepath arc was robbed of much of its drama and meaning because it wasn't latent telepath Susan Ivanova in C&C during the first 8 episodes.

So it wasn't Susan forced to go up against her friend and mentor John Sheridan in the matter of the teep colony.

It wasn't Capt. Ivanova whose duty as an EarthForce officer (and former rebel trying to heal the wounds within the service) would force her to uphold EarthGov law against the telepaths with whom she was so sympathetic.

It wasn't the wounded, heartsick Susan who (briefly) saw Byron as a Marcus-like figure and became involved with him, only to be disappointed once more and become more convinced than ever that Marcus was her last, best hope for love and that she blew it.

Finally it wasn't Capt. Susan Ivanova who, when pushed too far by the blackmail, violence and hostage taking of the out-of-control teeps had to call Alfred Bester on Mars and ask for his help in ending the crisis.

And it wasn't Susan who watched her erstwhile lover Byron immolate himself and his followers.

That's what Claudia's departure did to S5. Given that her absences left JMS with no adequate time to restructure the S5 arc (which also fed into the Crusade arc, since TNT had already put out feelers about a possible spin-off) I think he did remarkably well. Lochley is a better character than she gets credit for, and I've found that S5 looks better and better on repeated viewings than it did originally. I think a lot of the hostility towards S5 among fans who watched it during the first run (and who have resisted watching it in reruns precisely because they so disliked it the first time through) had more to do with our expectations of what the season would be like, and what it would cover than with what we actually saw. I think people were impatient to get to Centauri Prime and find out how the future glimpsed in "WWE" came about. And I think having to wait a week between episodes made the whole thing seem even slower than it really was, especially in constrast to the breathless narrative pace of S4.

Anyway, that's my take on the whole thing, which obviously is my take, but which I think is supported better by the available record than any other version. (If I didn't believe my opinion to be the correct one, after all, it wouldn't be my opinion. )

Regards,

Joe

 

[Leto II]

But time (and money) heals all wounds and if someone dangles a really tempting role (and paycheck) in front of any or all of the actors, I'm sure they'll agree to appear in any future B5 project that JMS does. And I'm equally sure that JMS will use whichever characters best serve the story he wants to tell - without regard to how he personally feels about a given actor. These folks are all grown-ups and all professionals. Also none of them are superstars. When you're an actor named Bruce Willis or an executive producers named Steven Speilberg or an actress named Nicole Kidman you may be in a position to indulge your personal whims in who you do and don't work with, and which projects you do or don't accept when offered. When you're Jerry Doyle or J. Michael Straczynski or Claudia Christian you probably take a good job when it's offered.


Regards,


Joe

Also, simply look at JMS's later use of Robert Foxworth on Jeremiah for a solid example of water-under-the-bridge professionalism...it's a reasonable guess that at this point, Claudia somehow returning to the role wouldn't be entirely out of the cards, simply going by recent evidence.

 

[vacantlook]

I used to be completely unable to see how Claudia could see her contribution to season four as being sparce, but when I got the season four DVDs and watched the episodes back-to-back, I started to feel a significant absence of Ivanova's character for a many-episode stretch in which it did feel as if she was there to only read the Voice of the Resistance. So now, I can see where Claudia was coming from. I just only wish she had held out and stayed with the show because her part in season five and all her contributions to the story of the telepath arc that Joe detailed above would have been mighty and signifcant and dramatic and heartbreaking. It can bring me into a melancholic mood fairly easily when thinking about it. I have grown to like Lockely farily well, especially with what is revealed about her character in "Day Of The Dead," so I don't hate Lockely, but I really wish Ivanova had remained.

 

[QMCO5]

Thanks Joe for explaining would could have been in Season 5, because I would have been even more disappointed with that story than what we were given. The change of command actually makes much more sense from a military and political point of view. In the military it would be extremely rare for a Commander upon promotion to Captain to be given command of the same organization, except perhaps in wartime. As the episode "Eyes" illustrates, there is a lot of competition for top military posts. It actually can be a handicap to hire someone too close to the situation. In the case of B5 the selection of the B5 Commander is as much a political decision as anything and the rationale JMS gives Sheridan for requesting Lochley's appointment makes much more sense than choosing Ivanova. So, I'm skeptical that Season 5 would have been better with the Ivanova character.

QMCO5

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

In the military it would be extremely rare for a Commander upon promotion to Captain to be given command of the same organization, except perhaps in wartime.

Or in the aftermath of a civil war, when the command in question had been the rallying point for one side and most of the military had continued to support the government. Had Claudia stayed the EA would have offered Ivanova the choice between command of a Warlock destroyer and command of Babylon 5, in large part because Sheridan requested it, and was one of the unspoken parts of the deal that led to his resignation. There probably were not a lot of EF officers clamoring for command of a spacestation where authority would be split with the IA and its new president. Since Ivanova was not available Lochley was a good fall-back position for Sheridan because she had stayed loyal to EarthGov (based on the biased information she was getting) but had not executed any illegal orders (which was a sop to the half of EarthForce that wanted him shot) while at the same time being someone he could totally trust and who he could rely on to tell him when she thought he was wrong. (If you can't count on your ex-wife to do that sort of thing, who can you count on? )

Regards,

Joe

 

[hypatia]

Sorry, but what does "sop" mean? I think I catch the drift of the sentence, but I can't quite place this abbreviation.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Sorry, but what does "sop" mean? I think I catch the drift of the sentence, but I can't quite place this abbreviation.

1. S.O.P. = Standard Operational Procedure

2. sop; noun. food softened by dipping in liquid

3. small concession or gift to pacify an opponent

4. (colloquial) fool, weakling, coward.


Joe DM will have meant the small concession

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Sorry, but what does "sop" mean? I think I catch the drift of the sentence, but I can't quite place this abbreviation.

It isn't an abbreviation, it's a word. (Actually there are phrases like "standard operating procedure" that are abbreviated as "s.o.p.", but they're usually written as abbreviations and in any event don't apply here. )

Main Entry: sop Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: säp
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
Etymology: Middle English soppe, from Old English sopp; akin to Middle Low German soppe soup, broth, Middle Dutch sop pot liquor, broth, sauce, Old High German sopfa piece of bread soaked in milk, Old Norse soppa soup, Old English span to swallow, sip, taste -- more at SUP
1 chiefly dialect : a piece of food (as bread) dipped or steeped in a liquid before being eaten
2 chiefly dialect : the liquid into which food is dipped before being eaten; especially : GRAVY
3 : a wet soppy mess
4 : a foolish spineless individual : MILKSOP
5 dialect England : a tuft of damp green grass mixed in with hay
6 : a conciliatory or propitiatory bribe, gift, or advance <as a sop to the low-paid teachers ... the board approved $400-a-year raises -- Time>

Obviously I had number 6 in mind. Not noted here, but fairly clear, is that the origin of number 6 is a special case of definition #1. A piece of bread soaked in gravy is often tossed to the family dog as a reward/bribe to get him away from the dinner table without actually giving up any meat. By extension any small bribe given to silence or distract a critic or enemy or any gesture whose only value is symbolic made for the same reason is - metaphorically - a sop.

Regards,

Joe