G'Kar...Afraid?

[HeinleinFan]

G\'Kar...Afraid?

A thought occurred to me as I watched Day of the Dead. I don’t think there is a correct answer to the question, but here it is: Who was G’Kar so afraid of seeing that night? It seems to me that his was a character that saw plenty of demons in real time, so he wouldn’t need to fear those that appeared in his dreams.

In a related theme… Frequently in the series we were privy to Londo’s vision of his own death. He remarked on several occasions that Centauri were able to foresee their own demise. I wonder if Refa, Cartagia, and Turhan had similar visions and, if so, did they attempt to forestall the end, or embrace it. Again, a purely theoretical question, but one worthy of some discussion.

 

[Ninja_Squirrel]

Re: G\'Kar...Afraid?

Knowing JMS, he probably did know who it was that would have appeared to G'Kar that night, even if it was not revealed. On the other hand, that was the one episode of the last few seasons that was written by someone other than JMS. G'Kar's reaction may not have been JMS's idea.

You bring up a good point about the pre-cognitive visions that Centauri have. You'd think some of them would try harder to avoid the conditions that lead to their death.

Turhan may have embraced his; he seemed to know he was running out of time and was very intereted in reconciliation. Refa was arrogant enough to think his vision (whatever it was) was a metaphor or a just a recurring dream rather than an actual prediction of death. In fact, in may have been his death vision that made him so bent on destroying the Narns.

And lastly, Cartagia was so wacky, he probably wasn't level-headed enough to accept his death vision. His other hallucinations probably got in the way. If the death vision is a kind of psi ability, he may have been too mentally unstable to get a vision, or if he did get a vision, it could have been the wrong one.

I wonder what the death dreams were for Vir, Adira, Regent Virrini, etc. We don't know when or how Vir dies in the future, but I'm sure that's one of those things JMS has written down somewhere in case it ever comes up. I'm in the middle of Season 5, so Lord Jano and Lord Vole are fresh on my mind too. You'd think they would have seen it coming.

 

[Elric]

Re: G\'Kar...Afraid?

I can't remember, but is the dream thing something that ALL Centauri get, or just some of them?

I tend to lean more towards the idea that it is just some of them (perhaps those with a certain destiny?). If you think about the Episode The Long Night of Londo Mollari, at the end we find out that certain Centari will have an experience like Mollari did in that Ep. Perhaps a similar thing applies to their dreams of their death?

 

[PillowRock]

Re: G\'Kar...Afraid?

You bring up a good point about the pre-cognitive visions that Centauri have. You'd think some of them would try harder to avoid the conditions that lead to their death.

That assumes that they see enough context to recognize what is going on.

Londo sees himself and G'Kar strangling each other, but doesn't even see enough to recognize that he is wearing the imperial white (which is certainly something that he would recognize if he saw that clear of picture).

Refa may only have seen himself being beaten by a group of Narn (which would not include G'Kar since stayed out of the actual killing), without any further context about where it occurred. Preventing such an occurrance may have been part of a hidden agenda in trying to utterly crush the Narn with planetary bombardment etc. The fact, in this speculative interpretation of his actions, that this actually brought about the very thing that he was trying to avoid is one of life's little (or not so little, from Refa's POV) ironies. If he didn't see that it occurred in an underground tunnel on Narn (which seems reasonable since Londo didn't seem to know that his death would be in the throne room), there would be no reason for any bells to go off in his head when he went down (with a large armed escort) after G'Kar.

Similarly, Cartagia may only have seen himself getting stabbed in the chest by an assassin. Getting himself elevated to god-hood, and thereby made immortal, may have been his way of preventing that. It isn't rational, but we are talking about Cartagia here.

Adira may not even realize, in her dream, that she was poisoned. It may appear like a quiet heart attack, or something similar, in her dream.

 

[Recoil]

Re: G\'Kar...Afraid?

Knowing JMS, he probably did know who it was that would have appeared to G'Kar that night, even if it was not revealed. On the other hand, that was the one episode of the last few seasons that was written by someone other than JMS. G'Kar's reaction may not have been JMS's idea.

I would agree. I dont believe that part was something JMS had in mind. In fact, I specifically remember reading that JMS only gave ONE input in the writing of that episode --- that it HAD to contain that cryptic message from Kosh to Sheridan. Other than that, everything else was created by the writer of the episode.

 

[ElScorcho]

Re: G\'Kar...Afraid?

It may seem out of left field, but that's what leads me to believe it may have in fact been Kosh that G'Kar was meant to see. He had touched G'Kar's mind during the Dust episode and he would definitely be a good visitor for him due to his choosing a path of enlightenment.

When you think about it, the only ghost of real significance was Zoe, with her crucial relationship with Lochley. The same could be said for Londo's girlfriend, but she was more of a means to an end. And Dodger was just an excuse to get Garibaldi laid. Morden and Lennier never really interacted, so his role was more of a harbinger.

So the signifigance of the ghost seems to be random. But knowing Kosh, he would have known that Sheridan would not be participating (as shown by his message to Lochley) and gone to see G'Kar instead.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Re: G\'Kar...Afraid?

Londo sees himself and G'Kar strangling each other, but doesn't even see enough to recognize that he is wearing the imperial white (which is certainly something that he would recognize if he saw that clear of picture).

Londo knew that he was going to be Emperor, even if he did not know the path from Babylon 5 to the thrown.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: G\'Kar...Afraid?

Yes, Londo suspects that he will be emperor, but I believe he is attempting to avoid that -- witness his lines to Vir about not wanting the throne. Lady Morella's prophecy, however, set it in stone for him.

G'Kar may have stepped on quite a few toes in the past, before his conversion. He may not have wanted to face their ghosts.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: G\'Kar...Afraid?

I like the idea that it would have been Kosh that would have visited G'Kar. I think that seeing that Kosh took on the visage of both Sheridan and G'Kar's father in their respective altered mental state communication moments, Kosh felt considerably more father-like to Sheridan and G'Kar than the others (whom he also probably saw as children, just not necessarily his own). With Kosh's "Day of the Dead" message being for Sheridan, that would take care of him having one last touch of him, so having it be Kosh who would have met with G'Kar during the "Day" would have taken care of Kosh's touching him too.

 

[PillowRock]

Re: G\'Kar...Afraid?

Londo knew that he was going to be Emperor

Before Lady Morella's prophecy Londo does not *know* that he will be Emperor like he *knows* that he and G'Kar will kill each other. In S3 when he asks for the prophecy he suspects it, but he doesn't know it.

In early S1, before he meets Morden and starts his rise to power, Londo does not seem to have any suspicion that he will become that prominent. He does, however, already know how he and G'Kar will die.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: G\'Kar...Afraid?

Before Lady Morella's prophecy Londo does not *know* that he will be Emperor like he *knows* that he and G'Kar will kill each other. In S3 when he asks for the prophecy he suspects it, but he doesn't know it.

I can't remember which episode it is in, but we do eventually see the totality of Londo's dream that reveals his death at the hands of G'Kar. In it, there is a shot of Londo being crowned. Because of that, I would think that Londo does know he'll be Emperor, but he might not necessarily remember every detail of the dream until events in his life trigger the memory of that dream element.

 

[HeinleinFan]

Re: G\'Kar...Afraid?

Good points all around.

When this question first occurred to me, I thought G’Kar’s ghost might have been Kosh, too, since he’d been touched by Kosh during Dust. I just don’t see how a strong, fearless character like G’Kar could be so skittish about a ghostly visitation.

I agree that Turhan embraced his end, and that Refa tried to weasel out of his. I don't think we can accurately predict what Cartagia would have thought - he was simply out there .

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: G\'Kar...Afraid?

I can't really imagine G'Kar being afraid of anything, or anyone, no matter how dire the circumstances. He found too much strength in his philosophy for that. I agree that if he'd had a ghost, it would have come from earlier in his life, before he began his path to enlightenment. I think that my candidate for G'Kar's visitor would be his father.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: G\'Kar...Afraid?

I would think that it would be reasonable to say that G'Kar did have fear of Cartagia and the Centauri. He acted with courage throughout all his ordeals with the Centauri as a whole and Cartagia's domination over his life in particular. But in order for him to have courage, he would have to have fear too since the existance of courage is depenedent on the existance of fear.

 

[B5_Obsessed]

Re: G\'Kar...Afraid?

I can't really imagine G'Kar being afraid of anything, or anyone, no matter how dire the circumstances. He found too much strength in his philosophy for that. I agree that if he'd had a ghost, it would have come from earlier in his life, before he began his path to enlightenment. I think that my candidate for G'Kar's visitor would be his father.

I could see that meeting already.

G'KAR: Father. You came at my greatest hour of need and with your words transformed my life and my soul. How can I ever thank you for turning me toward the path to salvation and spiritual enlightenment?

FATHER: What the hell are you talking about? I haven't seen you since they hung me from that damn tree!

G'KAR: (in Shatner-esque rage)
KOSH!!!!!
KOSHHHHH!!!!
KOSHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

You'd think G'Kar wouldn't be afraid of ghosts since the visitation from "his father" was such a pivotal moment in his life. However, it's prbably just good old fashioned superstition on his part that says don't mess with things you don't understand. If the dead want to visit you, that's their choice, but don't go looking for them. You may not like what you find. Just like Londo, there are things in G'Kar's past that he may not wish to confront.

 

[Sindatur]

Re: G\'Kar...Afraid?

I can't really imagine G'Kar being afraid of anything, or anyone, no matter how dire the circumstances. He found too much strength in his philosophy for that. I agree that if he'd had a ghost, it would have come from earlier in his life, before he began his path to enlightenment. I think that my candidate for G'Kar's visitor would be his father.

I could see that meeting already.

G'KAR: Father. You came at my greatest hour of need and with your words transformed my life and my soul. How can I ever thank you for turning me toward the path to salvation and spiritual enlightenment?

FATHER: What the hell are you talking about? I haven't seen you since they hung me from that damn tree!

G'KAR: (in Shatner-esque rage)
KOSH!!!!!
KOSHHHHH!!!!
KOSHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

You'd think G'Kar wouldn't be afraid of ghosts since the visitation from "his father" was such a pivotal moment in his life. However, it's prbably just good old fashioned superstition on his part that says don't mess with things you don't understand. If the dead want to visit you, that's their choice, but don't go looking for them. You may not like what you find. Just like Londo, there are things in G'Kar's past that he may not wish to confront.

There most definitely are, one of them being the guy he destroyed, in order to create the opening in the fourth cirle (OR whatever the layers are called) as he was climbing up through the ranks of his government. IE: The assasin that he thought Na'Toth might have been in early Season 1.

 

[B5_Obsessed]

Re: G\'Kar...Afraid?

Luckily for everyone involved, the ghosts were all friendly; even Mr Morden was only interested in reading the paper and having a cup o' joe.

When you think of all the pissed off ghosts out there waiting for Mollari, he got off (pun intended) lucky.

 

[Nancy]

Re: G\'Kar...Afraid?

When you think of all the pissed off ghosts out there waiting for Mollari, he got off (pun intended) lucky.

Mollari didn't get off lucky, he got lucky.

 

[B5_Obsessed]

Re: G\'Kar...Afraid?

Mollari didn't get off lucky, he got lucky.

Well, my pun was "got off" which is a little more vulgar, but got lucky will do just as well.

 

[Nancy]

Re: G\'Kar...Afraid?

Mollari didn't get off lucky, he got lucky.

Well, my pun was "got off" which is a little more vulgar, but got lucky will do just as well.

Well, I had to tone it down, not being in nc-17.