Given what their sins done how do you give Londo and Dellen a free pass?

[Garovorkin]

Everyone seem to ganging up on Bryon as if he is the worstperson there is, well How about Londo and his actions in the Movie In the Begining in which he caused not only the destruction of a Narn ship but he killed any chance for an quick end to the war and as result many millions died who would have died, then of course his little deal with Mr Morden which he got them to take out a that Narn base killing 10,000 of course his first concern was whether anyone would find out his part in it this had rather tragic results for not only his people but other as well. Yest we still consider him still the same lovable Londo. Then there is Dellen whose No mercy cry and call for blood at the death of Ducat nearly got Earth Wiped out, of course she has probably not told John her part in that one, wives afterall do keep some secrets from their husbands, yet we all still know and love here. Tell me do either of them deserve a the free pass that so many of us want to give them, all of this because honestly, I don't think so.

 

[maneth]

I don't give either Londo or Delenn a free pass. They're flawed beings, particularly Londo. It can be argued that Delenn was morally guilty of starting the Earth-Minbari war, but she was also the one who ended it. That won't bring the lost lives back, of course, but by and large, she's one of the good guys.

Londo was on his way to perdition, and he certainly committed atrocious things, but he did regret a lot of them as well.

However, both Delenn and Londo are wonderful characters. Byron is just a whiny teep. His deeds weren't so bad on the grand scale of things, after all, most of his victims were telepaths whom nobody trusts very much (that distrust led to the formation of the PsiCorps). However, because he was such an unsympathetic character, people don't like him much.

 

[Garovorkin]

Yeah Dellen ended it alright, but after crying no mercy and declairing war she couldn't said a day later, wait lets see what happened, no she made excuses like it's gotten beyond my control, she was able to find a way later , why not earlier? She is Grey Council and she can't stand up and say lets reconsider, because of what the others might might think of her? The only thing that stopped her was finding out that Valen had been reincarnated in the form of Sinclair, a human. Otherwise she would have lamented about the tragedy of the war but still wiped out every human being. Tell me how does the death of one man Ducat warrant the death of an entire species? that just does not seem like a fair exchange to me. That in my books makes flawed yes but rather reprehensible given the circumstances.

Londo he joked with Morden "Why don't you eliminate the entire Narn Homeworld". I would say that was in poor taste to say the least.

 

[maneth]

Indeed you have raised some great points. However, without Delenn becoming a hero, there would not have been much of a story...

 

[Truth_Seeker]

I don't think that we can blame only Delenn for the Earth-Minbari War.Her vote was the last one but that doesn't make it more important than the votes of the other Grey Council members.So we can say that the desicion was taken by the Minbari Government after an unprovoked attack by an unknown alien race.

As for Londo like I said in the Byron thread it's a matter of sympathy for the character.He's just a cool guy.

 

[Garovorkin]

She lit the fuse here, she could have held off but let her passion rule her thinking, in a sense she failed Ducat because she did what she wanted to not what she should have done, not what he (Ducat) would have done. She was in the end responsible, she had choice of action.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

I think forgiveness is one of the important ideas of the show.

We see:

-G'Kar forgiving Londo,
-Sheridan forgiving Delenn for hiding the possibility of Anna being alive
-Brother Theo forgiving the criminal who had a change of personality
-Delenn forgiving Lennier for almost letting Sheridan die and so on.

I think that's one of JMS's main philosophies.

 

[Garovorkin]

But why didn't she tell Sherridan her part in the war? Thats one hell of secret to keep from your spouse,was she afraid that he would never forgive her? I am aware of the the Forgiveness angle of the show. The whole problem with forgiveness is that it really changes nothing, the millions are still dead and millions more have had their lives ruined, no amount of forgiveness can can alter those facts or that outcome . One other Lesson that we also get from B5 is that forgiveness and absolution are not without cost personal and otherwise.

 

[Jan]

Tell me do either of them deserve a the free pass that so many of us want to give them, all of this because honestly, I don't think so.

I think you're confusing the fact that we *like* a character for not being aware of what they've done. That's not a free pass, as you say, because they do end up doing what they can to atone for what they did and it's not up to us to give them anything at all.

Delenn did everything she could to stop the war that she'd started in a moment or grief and rage and worked the rest of her life for peace. Londo didn't really understand what he was putting in motion when he told Morden what he wanted but the many years of being in the Keeper's power had to be a unique and personal hell.

Jan

 

[Jan]

But why didn't she tell Sherridan her part in the war? Thats one hell of secret to keep from your spouse,was she afraid that he would never forgive her?

From JMS:

The reality is...in war, one does what one does. Afterward, as
we heal, we try to forget what we did, and what they did. He killed as
many Minbari as he could; she was on the Grey Counci that directed the
war. One doesn't go into it.

jms

Jan

 

[Clark Kent]

One of the great things about Babylon 5 is that all the characters, at one time or another, make rash decisions based on emotion rather than rationality. If you have to give a free pass to any one character than you have to give one to all of them. From Sheridan to Londo, no one is without guilt or regret at a choice made in the heat of the moment. It is what, despite make-up and prosthetics, makes all the characters in B5 human.

 

[Cell]

Londo is quite the reprehensible person, but I find him more redeeming and sympathetic than Byron. G'Kar is really no different than Londo, but I find him more redeeming and sympathetic that Byron. Etc., etc.. It's all about how endearing the character is and whether or not you feel they have redeemable qualities, connect with you one some level, feel sorry for their actions, etc.. I believe that Londo, G'Kar, Delenn, etc. are endearing characters that possess one or more of the qualities necessary for redemption and my liking them, Byron doesn't manage to possess a single quality that I need in a redeemable character to make me like him.

 

[GKarsEye]

Who said anything about a "free pass?" The whole point is how they fall into trouble and deal with it. But surely you can't just put them on the same plane- one learns from her youthful, horrific error and spends the rest of her life making good, while one continues to spiral downwards.

Also, bad guys are just fun. That's why every actor enjoys playing the villain.

But more importantly, Londo is liked because he's funny and Delenn is liked because she is beautiful. If those things weren't true, I'd never have girlfriends last longer than 2 dates.

 

[mattikake]

How about; Londo and Delenn just have their flaws like everyone else. They were unware of their part in the bigger picture, the full implications of their actions. Both attemtped to redeem themselves, not because they were nice people, but because of self-interest in however way one views what self-interest is to them, and which is of course also fluid. For both this was doing what was best for their people and in the end both learn that the universe is not *just* about their people.

Byron on the other hand was a c**t who was well aware of the implications of his actions before he carried them out. But his self-interest was that he was simply too morally weak to do anything about it. When he did understand that the universe was about more than just his own people, he still wasn't interested.

So I guess the question is, is ignorance a valid excuse, as we all do what we think is the right thing to do at the time?

 

[maneth]

I would say that genuine ignorance is an excuse in this case, but willful obtuseness as displayed by Byron much less so.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Byron on the other hand was a c**t who was well aware of the implications of his actions before he carried them out. But his self-interest was that he was simply too morally weak to do anything about it. When he did understand that the universe was about more than just his own people, he still wasn't interested.

Byron was probably the morally strongest person on B5. He never wavered. He was not aware his actions would result in some of his followers resorting to violence, which is why he failed. He loved them too much, trusted them too much. Of course he knew "that the universe was about more than just his people," but his people were being terribly oppressed, and no one was helping them, so that was his over riding concern. And rightly so.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

. G'Kar is really no different than Londo,

No different from Londo? G'Kar didn't try to enslave and exterminate the Centauri. G'Kar and Londo are just about as different as it is possible to be.

 

[Cell]

No different from Londo? G'Kar didn't try to enslave and exterminate the Centauri. G'Kar and Londo are just about as different as it is possible to be.

He would have, and before his "conversion" if you will G'Kar was willing to do just as many monstrous things as Londo was. The only reason Morden didn't choose him instead of Londo was because his vision wasn't big enough, but he was still full of the same material for hate, death and destruction

 

[Jade Jaguar]

His "hate, death, and destruction" only extended to his idea of justice against those who devastated his planet and people. If you can't see a difference between that, and inflicting said devastation for personal gain and 'glory,' well, there isn't much point in us discussing anything, we have no common reference.

And that was before what you call G'Kar's "conversion," and what I would call his enlightenment. After that, the differences between them were exponentially greater, and that occurred, or at least began, long before the end of the series.

 

[Cell]

His "hate, death, and destruction" only extended to his idea of justice against those who devastated his planet and people. If you can't see a difference between that, and inflicting said devastation for personal gain and 'glory,' well, there isn't much point in us discussing anything, we have no common reference.

And that was before what you call G'Kar's "conversion," and what I would call his enlightenment. After that, the differences between them were exponentially greater, and that occurred, or at least began, long before the end of the series.

There is no difference between revenge, or justice if you are foolish enough to believe that there was still justice in the actions that G'Kar and the rest of the Narns were taking, and seeking personal glory. Both result in the deaths of people and both in the case of Londo and G'Kar were the acts of men willing to kill untold amounts of people to accomplish their tasks.

Undoubtedly G'Kar changed, but then for that matter so did Londo. The original question was if certain people were getting a free pass on their actions. I don't think anyone deserves a free pass, because for as "enlightened" as late series G'Kar may be that doesn't change the man he was before his enlightenment nor the many innocents that he killed in the name of the mighty Narn war machine.