First Ones Technology

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Hi, Everyone. This is my first post here. First let me say I love Babylon 5, but there is one issue that bothers me. The First Ones are millions of years older than the younger races, but thier technology level doesn't seem to reflect that in the show. Let me put it this way, imagine a Roman Tireme attacking a modern day American Nuclear aircraft carrier. The Tireme couldn't even make a dent in it. Now that time seperation is only a few thousand years, imagine a MILLION or even more though! Now granted, the First Ones ships are advanced, but the Narn displayed the ability to destroy Shadow fighter craft, and once the Alliance started using telepaths, they said that they were more evenly matched with the shadows...they lost 3 ships to every Shadow Vessel. But still!!! I mean come on, there should be no way possible for us to have even made a dent in a Shadow or Vorlon Vessel. Their technology seems to reflect a limited imagination by JMS. They are basically more powerful versions of the younger races ships, ie a Vorlon Cruiser is nothing but a Minbari ship with a bigger gun and better armour.

Continuing that line of thought, the Thirdspace aliens were able to nearly defeat the Vorlons, their ships must have bee incredibly powerful. But somehow the forces on B5 were able to hold them back miliarily for a while. Again, this doesn't make any sense to me. The Thirdspace aliens seem far too weak to have posed a threat to the Vorlons.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

{snip}Now granted, the First Ones ships are advanced, but the Narn displayed the ability to destroy Shadow fighter craft, and once the Alliance started using telepaths, they said that they were more evenly matched with the shadows...they lost 3 ships to every Shadow Vessel. But still!!! I mean come on, there should be no way possible for us to have even made a dent in a Shadow or Vorlon Vessel. Their technology seems to reflect a limited imagination by JMS. They are basically more powerful versions of the younger races ships, ie a Vorlon Cruiser is nothing but a Minbari ship with a bigger gun and better armour.

Telepaths and jump gates are Vorlon technology so there is less of a technology gap than you would expect. The Whitestars are partially Vorlon technology. The Vorlons were active 1,000 years ago so they may have given a few hints on making beam weapons and armour.

 

[Sindatur]

Telepaths and jump gates are Vorlon technology so there is less of a technology gap than you would expect. The Whitestars are partially Vorlon technology. The Vorlons were active 1,000 years ago so they may have given a few hints on making beam weapons and armour.

Another thing, when you get to be a million year old race, like the Vorlon or Shadows, and keep to yourself for the most part (aside from the occasional war) you become complacement. You're not advancing your technology much, and you're not as innovative as say the Humans are. So, the Vorlons and Shadows were a bit on the stagnant side, and Humans are quite innovative, so that becomes an advantage for the humans.

 

[RMcD]

That's a good point. Technology advances fastest in times of war, especially when the two sides are at a roughly equal level. That was more or less the Shadows' game plan. We have the second world war to thank for the development of radar, microwaves, nuclear power, civilian airflight and even computers.

 

[gravimage]

Another thing, when you get to be a million year old race, like the Vorlon or Shadows, and keep to yourself for the most part (aside from the occasional war) you become complacement. You're not advancing your technology much, and you're not as innovative as say the Humans are. So, the Vorlons and Shadows were a bit on the stagnant side, and Humans are quite innovative, so that becomes an advantage for the humans.

Yes, thats a good point, I've thought of that too, but it doesn't quite satisfy me. Even if they were complacent, 1 million years is a long technological gap. Like I said, imagine a Roman army versus the modern day American army. There would be no contest. Thats a mere 2,000 years. Even if the Vorlons were only 2,000 years ahead of us in technology levels, they would still be FAR more advanced than us. Nevermind over a MILLION. Thats such a big number its incomprehensible to us. Wars or no wars (and we know they were involved in wars) they would still be so far ahead of us it would be like humans waging war on ants.

 

[Galahad]

Like I said, imagine a Roman army versus the modern day American army. There would be no contest.

I wouldn't be so sure of that.

Technology only wins the battles in the hands of a capable commander. If someone studies your techniques well enough.. you can bet they'd find a weakness. And the romans especially would understand US tactical deployments quite well because most modern armies base their strategies on tried and tested Roman methods.

Knowing their dire technological deficiency, they would probably opt for a guerrila campaign.

Hello by the way.

 

[puzzle]

It should also be noted, to my understanding... that no ship of the younger races was ever seen successfully destroying a *crewed* First One ship, neither Shadow nor Vorlon.

Shadow vessels were impressive, but ultimately they were remote-controlled, and operated without regard to their survival. Highly scary, but not far into hopeless territory. Possible to oppose with a leap in coordination and a decent jump in technology... which was possibly what the Shadows wanted to see happen, and hence the relative strength of their ships.

The battle at Sector 83 (?) had unseen proportions and grievous levels of loss for Minbari, Brakiri, Vree, Narn, Human and whatever humanoid crews, compared to their respective history (except perhaps Minbari comparisons to the previous Shadow war)... but you could safely stick a label on it saying:

"No Shadows were harmed in the process of making this battle."

The production capabilities of First Ones were unseen and untargetable for the younger races. Hidden in the void, in hyperspace or between the two, were doubtless many bases, planets without a sun, rocks, ships, stations and other similar structures, hard to find, even harder to hurt (case in point, the Shadow planetkiller's version seen in at Coriana) which never came to be seen.

When it came to strategic weapons, the capabilities of humanoid species were rather credibly depicted as falling far short of doing anything but slight nuisance. Their strategic resources meanwhile (planets with stars, and stars themselves) were probably open for strike in many more ways than depicted.

 

[gravimage]

It should also be noted, to my understanding... that no ship of the younger races was ever seen successfully destroying a *crewed* First One ship, neither Shadow nor Vorlon.

Shadow vessels were impressive, but ultimately they were remote-controlled, and operated without regard to their survival. Highly scary, but not far into hopeless territory. Possible to oppose with a leap in coordination and a decent jump in technology... which was possibly what the Shadows wanted to see happen, and hence the relative strength of their ships.

The battle at Sector 83 (?) had unseen proportions and grievous levels of loss for Minbari, Brakiri, Vree, Narn, Human and whatever humanoid crews, compared to their respective history (except perhaps Minbari comparisons to the previous Shadow war)... but you could safely stick a label on it saying:

"No Shadows were harmed in the process of making this battle."

The production capabilities of First Ones were unseen and untargetable for the younger races. Hidden in the void, in hyperspace or between the two, were doubtless many bases, planets without a sun, rocks, ships, stations and other similar structures, hard to find, even harder to hurt (case in point, the Shadow planetkiller's version seen in at Coriana) which never came to be seen.

When it came to strategic weapons, the capabilities of humanoid species were rather credibly depicted as falling far short of doing anything but slight nuisance. Their strategic resources meanwhile (planets with stars, and stars themselves) were probably open for strike in many more ways than depicted.

Very true. Humans were not depicted as destroying any Vorlon vessels. I will grant that, but it doesn't explain how some of the Thirdspace aliens, who almost defeated the Vorlons, were destroyed by younger races vessels.

Let me ask you this: Without the Vorlons or other First Ones interfering could the Shadows have conquered the galaxy?

 

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I wouldn't be so sure of that.

Technology only wins the battles in the hands of a capable commander. If someone studies your techniques well enough.. you can bet they'd find a weakness. And the romans especially would understand US tactical deployments quite well because most modern armies base their strategies on tried and tested Roman methods.

Knowing their dire technological deficiency, they would probably opt for a guerrila campaign.

Hello by the way.

Hi. Well, put it this way, if the Roman empire existed today as a political entity, with only the technology it had during the height of its power, would it not be an easy target for the USA if we decided to attack it? We would only need a couple of bombers, or fighter planes...or even a couple of well placed nukes to utterly destroy them. They would be so scared seeing a napalm bomb, or a tank it would be overwhelming. Now like I said, thats a few thousand years difference. Not to mention over a million. Its inconcievable. Thats my main point. The first ones would be so far past us as to make any attempt at attacking them, or diplomacy on our part laughable.

 

[Sindatur]

Very true. Humans were not depicted as destroying any Vorlon vessels. I will grant that, but it doesn't explain how some of the Thirdspace aliens, who almost defeated the Vorlons, were destroyed by younger races vessels.

Let me ask you this: Without the Vorlons or other First Ones interfering could the Shadows have conquered the galaxy?

I vote absolutely, because the equalizer was Teeps and the White Stars, which were Vorlon Tech. Even the Whitestars alone, without Teeps were barely effective.

 

[RMcD]

Very true. Humans were not depicted as destroying any Vorlon vessels. I will grant that, but it doesn't explain how some of the Thirdspace aliens, who almost defeated the Vorlons, were destroyed by younger races vessels.

Yeah, it did seem a little silly that after all that talk of them crushing Vorlons and being anti-life itself their main technological advantage seemed to be that they had shields, which could still be taken down by beam weapons. But they could also control groups of minds telepathically, so perhaps they were more used to operating on the basis of getting their enemies to destroy themselves.

Also nothing larger than a fighter made it through the gate, and we don't know whether they were crewed by the Thirdspace aliens themselves, or were toys given to their equivalent of the Drakh or the Hand's servant's in the Rangers pilot.. Even so, they seemed to cause a lot of damage..

 

[GaribaldisHair]

I'm sure that the Shadows could have conquered the galaxy if they had wanted to, but the point is that they didn't want to. They wanted to nurture the younger races into development by creating conflict ... by getting them to fight one another.

However, I think the major reason for the technological differences being overcomeable (as it were ) is that a genuinely invincible enemy means no story.

And let's not forget that the differences were overcome using technology of equivalent advancement ... Vorlon-hybrid, self repairing ships and genetically manufactured teeps specifically designed to take advantage of the Shadows' known weakness. And the well-known benefits of having every important younger race in the galaxy working together as a team.

You only have to look at any sport to see how teams made up of highly paid, hugely talented superstars can be overcome by a lesser team without that talent pool but with the desire and commitment to work for each other as a unit.

 

[gravimage]

I'm sure that the Shadows could have conquered the galaxy if they had wanted to, but the point is that they didn't want to. They wanted to nurture the younger races into development by creating conflict ... by getting them to fight one another.

However, I think the major reason for the technological differences being overcomeable (as it were ) is that a genuinely invincible enemy means no story.

And let's not forget that the differences were overcome using technology of equivalent advancement ... Vorlon-hybrid, self repairing ships and genetically manufactured teeps specifically designed to take advantage of the Shadows' known weakness. And the well-known benefits of having every important younger race in the galaxy working together as a team.

You only have to look at any sport to see how teams made up of highly paid, hugely talented superstars can be overcome by a lesser team without that talent pool but with the desire and commitment to work for each other as a unit.

Okay, but let's look at the idea of a Volron-Minbari hybrid ship. Does it really make sense? Going back to the analogy of a Roman Tireme and Nuclear Aircraft Carrier, what would such a hybrid look like? The technology levels are so incapatible that it doesn't really make any sense. Now like I said a couple of times, this tech gap represents only a few thousands between the same species. Imagine mixing two seperate species tech which are seperated by millions of years?

I do think you are right though, if the Shadows Tech was portrayed like that, it wouldn't be much of a story, just Shadows and Vorlons waging a war we could never understand. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of Shadows and Vorlons, but I think it more realistic to think of them as being a few thousand years ahead of us, than millions. Of course, talking realism doesn't make much sense in a show like this, but JMS was trying to make Babylon 5 as realistic as possible, and i think this is one place he fell short.

 

[Galahad]

Okay, but let's look at the idea of a Volron-Minbari hybrid ship. Does it really make sense? Going back to the analogy of a Roman Tireme and Nuclear Aircraft Carrier, what would such a hybrid look like? The technology levels are so incapatible that it doesn't really make any sense.

You are describing vessels that performed entirely different roles. A trireme wasn't designed to carry other craft. It would be better to coimpare it with a battleship, frigate or cruiser.

The Whitestars don't employ vorlon weaponry (ACtA tells us that prior to the Victory class, no vessel had a large enough reactor to fuel the power build up necessary). The Whitestars had Vorlon defensive systems... souped up engines and I would hazard a guess that the AI and data transfer technology was vorlon too.

I guess a hybrid trireme would be a wrapped in a steel superstructure. It might be equipped with a basic computer system to power a primitive radar and you might expect it to have a basic modern propulsion drive. The principle advantage in this would be that most of the crew could be spared to fire arrows at opposition boats, while the shiop itself would still be able to manouver.

A Roman "Sheridan" would probably utilise fireships to attack static targets to hamper supply lines.

It would also be wise to rely on covert assaults. Using non metal ships to sneak up and board US vessels and take out it's crew with arrows or at swordpoint.

 

[RMcD]

I guess the only way out is to start speculating about upper limits on how far military technology can be pushed. Does a million years really equate to a thousand times a thousand years worth of technological progress, or do you advance in fits and starts and eventually hit a ceiling? Do you develop an advanced morality that prevents you from discovering or deploying certain weapons? Does combat become entirely ritualised, with rules of engagement fixed far in the past? Some of the first ones seem to hibernate or become inactive for long periods - the Shadows only seem to wake up briefly every 1,000 years. And they seem to have lost interest in many of the things that seem important to the younger races. Perhaps military science is one of them?

 

[gravimage]

You are describing vessels that performed entirely different roles. A trireme wasn't designed to carry other craft. It would be better to coimpare it with a battleship, frigate or cruiser.

The Whitestars don't employ vorlon weaponry (ACtA tells us that prior to the Victory class, no vessel had a large enough reactor to fuel the power build up necessary). The Whitestars had Vorlon defensive systems... souped up engines and I would hazard a guess that the AI and data transfer technology was vorlon too.

I guess a hybrid trireme would be a wrapped in a steel superstructure. It might be equipped with a basic computer system to power a primitive radar and you might expect it to have a basic modern propulsion drive. The principle advantage in this would be that most of the crew could be spared to fire arrows at opposition boats, while the shiop itself would still be able to manouver.

A Roman "Sheridan" would probably utilise fireships to attack static targets to hamper supply lines.

It would also be wise to rely on covert assaults. Using non metal ships to sneak up and board US vessels and take out it's crew with arrows or at swordpoint.

Yeah I know what you mean but I wanted something nuclear powered to make it more dramatic of an analogy. The Victory Class ships were actually what bother me the most. After the Vorlon's departure it didn't seem like it took Earth very long to master the ability to produce a Vorlon weapon. Think about it, even if a Vorlon ship crashed on Earth today in real life, how long do you think it would take us to reproduce it? Or, look at it this way, say went back in time and crashed a Stealth Bomber in Ancient Rome...Do you think next year they would have been anywhere close to being able to reproduce it?

 

[GaribaldisHair]

The Victory Class ships were actually what bother me the most. After the Vorlon's departure it didn't seem like it took Earth very long to master the ability to produce a Vorlon weapon.

But they didn't do it alone, they were in league with the Minbari - who were given access to the tech by the Vorlons themselves for the White Star ships ... and I hardly think producing a weapon that can be fired once and then leave you totally vulnerable for up to 60 seconds can be considered having "mastered" the ability.

It also strikes me that there is no good reason for them to simply keep on creating better and better weapons and better and better technology. Given the remaining first ones propensity to simply wander the dark places of the galaxy and not be looking to wage war on anyone, since the younger races (a) don't know they are there and (b) couldn't really harm them if they tried, and the other first ones are not interested in fighting among themselves ... note that the Vorlons and Shadows have to be forced into actually confronting each other directly ... what would be the point in constantly advancing the tech?

They are billions of years older than us ... but how long ago did they lose the need and/or desire to keep producing better and more advanced technology? Once you can travel wherever you like whenever you like, and no one likely to wage war against you stands a chance there are better things to do. Like freaking out survey pilots around Sigma 957 for example.

 

[KoshN]

Very true. Humans were not depicted as destroying any Vorlon vessels. I will grant that, but it doesn't explain how some of the Thirdspace aliens, who almost defeated the Vorlons, were destroyed by younger races vessels.

The Thirdspace alien ships that were destroyed by other ships, were only fighters. The Thirdspace alien capital ships were destroyed by the exploding Thirdspace jumpgate, which was blown up from the inside (inside the shield and any armor) by a nuke.Another weakness of the Thirdspace aliens may have been overconfidence. Against the Vorlons, they may have brought their "A game."

Let me ask you this: Without the Vorlons or other First Ones interfering could the Shadows have conquered the galaxy?

Probably, but that was not their intent. Note that Vorlon interference also includes the widespread appearance of telepaths. Without telepaths, or at least as many as they had, the alliance would have had a much harder time against the Shadow ships.

 

[KoshN]

Okay, but let's look at the idea of a Volron-Minbari hybrid ship. Does it really make sense? Going back to the analogy of a Roman Tireme and Nuclear Aircraft Carrier, what would such a hybrid look like? The technology levels are so incapatible that it doesn't really make any sense. Now like I said a couple of times, this tech gap represents only a few thousands between the same species. Imagine mixing two seperate species tech which are seperated by millions of years?

The Whitestar is a Minbari-Vorlon hybrid. The Minbari are ahead of the Humans, and all the Whitestar got was a few bits of Vorlon tech, probably all that could be grafted onto a Minbari ship. The Whitestar didn't have shields like a Vorlon Cruiser. It didn't have the armor of a Vorlon Cruiser. It didn't have the weaponry of a Vorlon Cruiser. All it had were better sensors (with which Marcus and Susan were able to detect the Vorlon fleet in the hyperspace fold), and a self-healing hull (provided the damage wasn't too sudden and too great).

Another thing, once the Vorlons and Shadows got serious and brought out the planetkillers, did we see ANY alliance ship or ships destroy one of those under Vorlon or Shadow control, EVER? No. The combined firepower of the First Ones destroyed the Vorlon Planetkiller, and the fully functioning Shadow Planetkiller simply withdrew when the Shadows and Vorlons left with Lorien. Remember how ships surrounded by the Shadow Planetkiller at Coriana 6 suffered cold shutdown of all systems? Basically, every ship of the "second ones and counting" caught in the Shadow Plantekiller was dead meat. The Shadow Planetkiller operated by the Drakh in "A Call to Arms" didn't do that cold shutdown thing (not fully functioning).

 

[KoshFan]

Yeah, the other First Ones were the real firepower at Coriana 6 (which was a diplomatic victory anyway).

As for the White Stars: the Minbari were very far ahead of Humans, by at least a thousand years and probably more, and the Vorlons themselves probably redesigned their shields and sensors to cooperate with the Minbari system. Are modern-day aircraft carriers and Roman triremes compatible? Not directly -- but if us modern types designed a good flamethrower and supervised its installation on a trireme, I think the combination would work just fine.

Also, remember that the Vorlons have a tendency to go static, and they knew when their enemy would show up again. No rush, really. I bet their one and only innovation in the last thousand years was telepathy. Their ultimate weapon, their fail-safe, in this most recent Shadow War was... Lyta.