Excalibur: ISA or EA ship?

KoshN · Jan 13, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Diresky:
Here is some spoo for thought.

Watch Call To Arms again. Particulary the part where President Sheridan states that the I.S.A. shipyards were wiped out by the Drahk on their way out. Now when he says this really pay attention to Sheridan's body language and his verbal inflections.

Yes the publically known shipyards were destroyed,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What publically known shipyards? These were secret shipyards. Still, I'm sure the plans for the the ships weren't destroyed, just the shipyards themselves (and probably some key personnel).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Diresky:
... but the I.S.A. knew better than to put all their eggs in one major basket. With Sheridan's interests in WWII history and Garibaldi's paranoia I suspect the I.S.A. had some other more secret shipyards hidden away (possibly in hyperspace). The I.S.A. already does not trust Earth Gov and so it wants Earth Gov's Bio Weapon, Advanced Technologies Depts., and I.X.P.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I.X.P. ? IPX.

Overall, I agree.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Diresky:
Damn TNT...sigh.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I second that, w.r.t. TNT-Atlanta.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Diresky:
The White Stars could be classified as either a courier, gunship, or a multipurpose corvette. The Excalibur and her kind are destroyers. The Valen according to advertisements is the heavy flag ship of the I.S.A. Sounds like the Valen is a heavy cruiser.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Compared to WWII navies:

Whitestars are more like pocket battleships, or heavy cruisers, being fast, maneuverable, and heavily armed.

The Excalibur is more like a battleship/aircraft carrier.

That would probably make the Valen a battleship.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

Mondo Londo · Jan 13, 2002

Steering the discussion back in a different direction, here's what confuses me:

In the Crusade episode, Patterns of the Soul, General Thompson says he has authority directly from President Sheridan to redirect the Excalibur to locate the "escaped" humans.

If EA is running the Excalibur, why or how does General Thompson need authority from the ISA President? There's a conflict in the command structure here...

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"What's up, Drakh?"

Michael Garibaldi

Natron · Jan 13, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In the Crusade episode, Patterns of the Soul, General Thompson says he has authority directly from President Sheridan to redirect the Excalibur to locate the "escaped" humans.

If EA is running the Excalibur, why or how does General Thompson need authority from the ISA President? There's a conflict in the command structure here... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sheridan loaned the Excalibur to the Earth Alliance to search for a cure. This doesn't necessarily mean Sheridan has no say on what it does anymore. He is probably kept up to date as to what the Excalibur does. If per chance, something happened that he needed the Excalibur for, he could call her back.

Also, when Thompson said that, Gideon said the Excalibur was about to investigate a good lead. This leads me to believe that Sheridan still has some say in what happens with the Excalibur.

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"We live for the one, we die for the one."

Joseph DeMartino · Jan 13, 2002

Victory and Excalibur were the first two ships built under the Minbari-Human agreement worked out in S5: The Humans build the ships and pay for them, the Minbari supply the technical know-how. The two parties (and the Interstellar Alliance) share in the fruits of the project. That may, in fact, be why two prototypes were built (apart from the plot requirement that one of them be destroyed in the course of ACtA

) instead of the usual one. One ship was destined for the IA (or the Minbari) the other for the EA.

The ships were not built by Edgars-Garibaldi, which is primarily a pharmacuetical company, although it probably owns subsidiaries the were subcontractors on the ship project. It is clearly stated in ACtA that Garibaldi has been brought in recently as Sheridan's personal trouble-shooter to get the stalled project back on schedule. If he had been running things from the beginning it wouldn't be behind schedule in the first place.

After Victory was destroyed, Excalibur remained the property of the IA. Either it was "their" ship from the beginning, or the deal gave the IA priority if one of the ships were lost. It has now been lent to the EA as the lead ship in finding the cure. It is clear from a number of events that while the EA is supplying the crew (and presumably the operating expenses), the search for the cure is being coordinated by the IA - which only makes sense.

The area where a cure might be found extends far beyond Earth jurisdiction, and into areas where EarthForce might not be welcome. The Rangers and the White Star fleet are also involved, and Gideon's interview with representatives of the IA (in War Zone makes it clear that the other races also have a vested interest in what happens with the plague. (Especially the threat of its spreading.)

So orders regarding the conduct of the search, and the use of search resources, would ultimately come from Sheridan as President of the Alliance. (It is likely that the loan of Excalibur came with strings attached, and that EarthForce is not free to use the ship as and when it chooses.)

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

Kribu · Jan 13, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Joseph DeMartino posted:

The Rangers and the White Star fleet are also involved, and Gideon's interview with representatives of the IA (in War Zone makes it clear that the other races also have a vested interest in what happens with the plague. (Especially the threat of its spreading.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wasn't that episode Racing the Night?

Anyway, yes indeed, especially the Drazi seemed to be angry about Gideon's appointment and they quite obviously had (or at least thought they have) a say in the matter of how the ship would be used.

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"Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com

KoshN · Jan 13, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kribu:
Wasn't that episode Racing the Night?

Anyway, yes indeed, especially the Drazi seemed to be angry about Gideon's appointment and they quite obviously had (or at least thought they have) a say in the matter of how the ship would be used.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right. It was the sepia tone dream sequence at the beginning of Racing the Night.

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

bakana · Jan 14, 2002

A point: Excalibur had been loaned for the Express purpose of finding a Cure for the plague.

The General was trying to Divert it from that mission which would be a breach of that agreement, so he Would need Sheridan's permission to give it another mission, even temporarily.

A better question is what Cock & Bull story he fed Sheridan to account to getting Approval.

Unless the general Lied. Very possible. After all, Gideon was unlikely to put in a call to the ISA president to check.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

Natron · Jan 14, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Unless the general Lied. Very possible. After all, Gideon was unlikely to put in a call to the ISA president to check.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gideon was ordered by a superior officer, and I assume he is required to take orders without question. Now, if the mission would put his crew at risk, then he could question authority.

I suppose Thompson could have just made the "permission from Sheridan" part up, but that would be very risky.

Also, this brings up a question. If the ship is ISA, shouldn't there be at least some Rangers onboard. I know Earth Force is using it, and therefore would be crewed by humans, but shouldn't there be someone onboard who could answer directly to Sheridan or Delenn?

Also, after the plague is cured, would the ship be returned to ISA use? I assume it is set up to be crewed by any race in the ISA (or at least most races). If what I've heard of unaired scripts

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td> the Excalibur going rogue after the cure is found (possibly Season 2 or 3) would imply that they go rogue from Earth Force, but what about the ISA? </td></tr></table>

Also, after the cure is found, would Gideon still be Captain? Could he join the ISA and retain command? And the crew? The current crew has spent all this time on board, mastering her systems, familiarizing themselves with it's weapons, engines, etc. Would Sheridan want them all pulled off and replaced by Rangers who would now have to be trained to run it as well?

How do they go about training people to run it. Obviously it is easy for humans, since it is close to other EA ships, but what about other races.

The White Stars were set up to be crewed by Minbari and captained mostly by humans.

I'm going to start a new topic on the Babylon 5 board about the Rangers, so check that out please. It will partly be a continuation of this post.

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"We live for the one, we die for the one."

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 14, 2002

Sheridan would find out about the new mission when Gideon submits his monthly progress report. Consequently, an unauthorised diversion is bound to be detected. The general may simply have forgotten that Gideon reports over his head.

There are a couple of other mysteries. Why did the general not use one of his own ships? There are several destroyers around. Much easier to hush things up when you have full control.

Finally, why the mission? If nothing is done, the plague will kill the runaways. Since they are hiding they will say nothing.

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Andrew Swallow

[This message has been edited by AndrewSwallow (edited January 16, 2002).]

Joseph DeMartino · Jan 15, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I assume it is set up to be crewed by any race in the ISA (or at least most races).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I think the Victory-class is primarily designed for Humans, and to a degree for the Minbari. But not for the other races. If you go back to Sheridan and Delenn's original conversation about the need for a new class of ships to supplement the White Stars, it is pretty clear that the whole project is supposed to be kept secret from the other member worlds, who would not be pleased about this Minbari-Human collaboration nor the ISA military benefiting from it.

As for the chain of command - if the ship is turned over to EA for its use there is no question of having Rangers aboard as "representatives." The crew would be 100% EarthForce and they would obey the EA chain of command. The IA would coordinate the overall search for the cure, but Gideon's orders would still have to come from his immediate superiors. (Similarly Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the U.S. cannot issue an order to a colonel in the army or a captain in the Navy. The order would have to originate with the Secretary of Defense, and then go down the chain of command from the Army Chief of Staff of Chief of Naval Operations.)

If the cure were found without further complications, Gideon and his crew would likely go back to an explorer ship and Excalibur would be turned over to the IA. Given the actual situation planned for S2 and beyond, I would guess that Excalibur stays one step ahead of its pursuers and isn't in anybody's chain of command.

At that point Sheridan could simply leave EarthForce to deal with its own mess, join the pursuit of the renegade ship, or reach a private agreement with Gideon. If Gideon could convince Sheridan that the EA was experimenting with Shadow Tech on a large scale, and that there is still a danger, Sheridan would likely provide covert aid to Excalibur. (Always preserving plausible deniability for the IA.) I suspect this is the direction JMS was headed in, given Sheridan's having hand-picked Gideon, and Gideon's admiration for Sheridan.

I also think interesting things would have happened with Lochley, who for the second time in her career would be faced with a choice between following her orders and doing "the right thing." Be interesting to see what she would have done, given her past relationship with Sheridan, and her budding relationship with Gideon.

*sigh*

I'm really pissed we never got to see more of the show.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

bakana · Jan 15, 2002

This is the second time I've seen a post asserting that the White Stars were designed to be crewed by Minbari and Captained by Humans.

No such thing. While they are designed to be crewed by Minbari, the Captain is chosen from whichever RANGER is right for the job at that moment.
We just happen to have Seen mostly human captains because the missions we saw were related to B5.

And because Sinclair recruited a Lot of Human rangers during the time when not many Minbari were joining because the Warrior Caste was sticking its head in the sand about the Shadows.

At the time, most of the Rangers were getting a bit old and few Minbari believed in the prophesy so, the Ranger's numbers were dwindling.

Sinclair used the Warrior caste's attitude as leverage to get permission to recruit other races into the Rangers.
Naturally, he got a lot of Humans since it is easier to recruit your own race than any other.
Sinclair made it a point to meet Every Human who visited the Minbari capital city for a while.
A lot of them either got recruited or sent friends to meet Sinclair and get recruited.

Plus, once a Ranger is fully trained, he/she keeps an eye out for potential recruits.

------------------
Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 17, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by AndrewSwallow:
Finally, why the mission? If nothing is done, the plague will kill the runaways. Since they are hiding they will say nothing.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

People with dirty little secrets spend inordinate amounts of time and energy worrying about whether they will stay hidden. With a ship of their own and the ability to communicate with the outside world, there was always a chance the runaways would spill the beans about the bioengineering before the plague killed them (when you're waiting for the other shoe to drop, five years could be a long time

).

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Recoil · Jan 17, 2002

Hey,

I know a 'Rhea' that works for/with orangesmoothie.com. I believe he lives on the Westcoast too.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 17, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Recoil:
Hey,

I know a 'Rhea' that works for/with orangesmoothie.com. I believe he lives on the Westcoast too.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It can't be me, since I'm a she.

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**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 17, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Recoil:
Hey,

I know a 'Rhea' that works for/with orangesmoothie.com. I believe he lives on the Westcoast too.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It can't be me, since I'm a she.

Rhea is the name in mythology for the mother of the Titans - the earth mother.

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**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 20, 2002

Sorry, a bit late to the discussion.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Also, just because the Drakh destroyed the shipyard, that doesn't mean all the Documentation was destroyed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I believe that most of the records of the Victory-class ship's construction were most likely destroyed, but not by the Drakh attack. Remember that Drake was heading up the entire construction process--trying to adapt Vorlan and Miribari technology to Earth technology--and it wound up he was in cahoots with the Drakh. Most likely, Drake destroyed as much data as he could before he, very unwisely, put a gun to Garibaldi's head.

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It's the quiet ones who change the universe. The loud ones only take the credit.

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 20, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rommie69:
If I remember correctly, Sheridan said that it took years just to build the ships. And if the shipyards were destroyed, that means they have to build the shipyards before they build the ships, which is going to add on even more time. So there you are.

Rommie

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You forget that they were building the Victory class ships FOR THE FIRST TIME. Since they already have the final plans for the Excalibur and the Victory elsewhere, it shouldn't take more than a year or two to build a new ship.

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**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 20, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You forget that they were building the Victory class ships FOR THE FIRST TIME. Since they already have the final plans for the Excalibur and the Victory elsewhere, it shouldn't take more than a year or two to build a new ship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was my impression that the Victory and Excalibur were prototype ships. When Sheridan suddenly showed up to take the ships in Call to Arms, I remember it was an issue that they hadn't been put through real tests. And like I said, it's highly likely that Drake destroyed as many records as he could, and combined with the fact the Drahk destroyed the custom shipyards for the prototypes, it could be a couple of years to even start up again, especially if they have to figure out how to redo all of Drake's work.

EDIT: Fixed really, really bad grammar.

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It's the quiet ones who change the universe. The loud ones only take the credit.

[This message has been edited by Kalen Efran (edited January 20, 2002).]

Joseph DeMartino · Jan 20, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...the Drahk destroyed the custom shipyards for the prototypes would send back a couple of years, especially if they have to figure out how to redo all of Drake's work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And in the process doubtless killed many of the scientists and engineers who contributed to it. While there were doubtless off-site back-ups of much of the data, security would probably require that these be hand-carried, not broadcast to other locations, so there is a good chance that the very latest data went up with the shipyard.

So the IA now has to build another secret, secure shipyard somewhere, recruit a whole new staff to work on it (and put them through much more extensive background checks, considering what happened to the last group.) Many of the very best candidates in their fields - and the most trusted - were probably killed, so their replacements are going to be second stringers.

How quickly does everybody think the Manhattan Project could have been put back together if someone had bombed Los Alamos in 1945?

Said second stringers are now going to have to get up to speed on work that was done by their brighter pedecessors before they can continue and complete the work (which was still, as noted, at the prototype stage.) Even if they could relatively quickly master enough of the data to reproduce the prototypes, that is a long way from having production-ready ships with most of the bugs worked out ready to go.

(Excalibur will let them find many of the inevitable bugs, but they can't interrupt her mission and take her apart to figure out how to fix them. So this information won't do them a lot of good until they've built another prototype.)

Yeah, I can see it being years before they're in a position to build any new Victory-class ships.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 20, 2002

Here's what JMS said about Gideon's chain of command:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Bear in mind also that Sheridan is totally *outside* Gideon's chain of command. His authority goes up to the president of the Earth Alliance, not the ISA. It would be like a field commander in NATO going to Clinton with a problem. He has to go through the chain of command first.

jms<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To clarify, the mission that Gideon and Excalibar is on is Earth's. The ship itself is on loan from ISA, but under EA authority. Therefore, Gideon receives his orders from EA chain of command, who are funding and coordinating the mission. Sheridan, the Rangers and ISA are merely cooperating at this point in Crusade's story.

My guess with Thompson's "permission from Sheridan" comment is that the loan of the highly experimental Excalibar (where Sheridan and ISA would love to use it to rebuild all their work) to Earth Force comes with the caveat that the ship only be used for that specific mission. Gideon felt that the assignment was outside of Excalibar's highly important orders, but Thompson countered that Sheridan gave his approval for the diviation. The mission, however, is still under Earth Force guidance.

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It's the quiet ones who change the universe. The loud ones only take the credit.

Excalibur: ISA or EA ship?

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