Evolving to light...

[FreeBaGeL]

Throughout the series, Vorlons were portrayed as beings of light when out of their encounter suit.

I always considered this to be something unique to the Vorlons until I saw the B5 movie "River of Souls."

In this movie, soulhunters mistakenly capture the souls of an entire race, thinking the race was being wiped out, when in fact it is later revealed that they weren't dying, but rather evolving. If I recall correctly it is hinted to here that they were set to evolve in a similar manner as the Vorlons, into beings of light.

So, here's my question.

The Vorlons were first ones, as were the Shadows and Lorien was THE first one. The Shadows were also the Vorlon's equal in terms of technological advancement is concerned.

So, the Shadows were as old and as technologically advanced as the Vorlons were, yet the Shadows (as well of Lorien) remained as beings of flesh rather than light, why had they not evolved?

Here's a theory, and yes it is a stretch. The main difference between the Shadows and the Vorlons was the Shadows ideal of chaos and the Vorlons ideal of order. So, since the Vorlons had evolved again and the Shadows hadn't, and this was their major difference, was this hinting towards the ideal of "order" being "right" and "chaos" being "wrong"? Or was this just kind of an oversight with the idea of evolving to light being added later solely for the purpose of "The River of Souls" after the TV shows were already complete (also in the episode at the end of season 4 when the humans head for the rim they haven't evolved again either, or at least did not appear to)?

Or am I just connecting things that aren't really connected and overanalyzing things here?

 

[vacantlook]

...Lorien) remained as beings of flesh rather than light, why had they not evolved?...

We were shown multiple times that Lorien was a being of light. A big ol' light blue ball of glowing light.

As for the Shadows, exactly how much do we know about Shadow physiology anyway? Maybe they have energy-based states of being but prefer physical. Maybe they are rolling pools of energy inside a shell with what we've always seen of them being nothing but the shell.

...also in the episode at the end of season 4 when the humans head for the rim they haven't evolved again either, or at least did not appear to....

The human 1 million years in the future seen in "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" (aka the season four finale) is going to meet up with the rest of the human race at the Vorlon homeworld, which humans having evolved to a point they can handle what the Vorlons left behind are taking custody of that which the Vorlons left behind. And I thought it was shown quite significantly that humans 1 million years in the future had evolved into beings of energy when the human turned into a ball of glowing light and entered into an encounter suit before he left Earth.

 

[Sindatur]

What VL said.

In Deconstruction, the guy changed into a ball of light and entered his encounter suit. Kinda convenient that he waited until the download of records was complete before he evolved, don't ya think? I believe he was already evolved, but because of the nature of Earth Technology, used a physical incarnation, until the job was done.

Also as Vl said, we don't know that the shadows weren't in Encounter suits, the glowing "light" eyes of the shadows lead me to believe it was an encounter suit, and it was adjusting light waves that allowed Sheridan to see them with Morden in the cell. If the Shadows had been shown as beings of light, how do you show a being of light that is chaos based, light is light, not dark.
Additionally, advancing to a being of light may be a metaphor for the next level.

 

[B5_Obsessed]

I don't know where I read it, but I did read somewhere (in one of the books?) that the Shadows were in fact beings of light, but chose the dark and hardened physical form. If you think about it, we've never really seen the body of a Shadow, they walk around invisible most of the time, so it's quite possible they are noncorporeal in nature.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

I tend to think... that the difference isn't so great.

What is light, after all... but a peculiar form of matter, particles without standing mass? A form (at least for our technology) more suited for tranmission than storage.

For beings whose technology permits seemingly crazy stuff (for example who appear to control details of which radiation they reflect, or permit to pass without obstacle)... surely converting information between particles of different properties... ought to be fairly doable.

For example, two imaginable methods of becoming transparent (and next moment visible)... are changing what one is composed of (into particles which don't obstruct light)... or analyzing massive amounts of incoming particles, instantly computing their trajectories, and instantly re-transmitting their indisinguishable likenesses along indistinguishably similar trajectories.

They might have preferences, sure... tastes, appreciations and economic matters involved... but I suspect that if a Vorlon really wanted (and invested some time) it could go invisible... and if a Shadow adjusted whatever subsystem it employs for invisibility, it could be something luminous and slightly fluid in form.

After all, both seem to manage similar tricks. Like Shadows appear to move without a lack of space obstructing them... Vorlons distracted by fighting don't appear to mind passing through solid obstacles.

 

[rangerPHIL]

All the younger races knew about the shadows was Vorlon Propaganda.

We all know that the Shadows ideologies are correct don't we.

 

[Sindatur]

All the younger races knew about the shadows was Vorlon Propaganda.

We all know that the Shadows ideologies are correct don't we.

At least those in the big white mansion in Washngton DC, do. Oh, wait...nevermind...wrong forum

 

[sleepy_shadow]

I would think the younger races were *not* terribly flooded with Vorlon propaganda.

Sure, it seems the Vorlons, officially preferring order... invested slightly more resources in their propaganda team... perhaps even enough to conduct a few instances of species-wide genetic conditioning...

...but eventually, conditioning something in constant motion, influencing something with a mind of its own... is no cheap task, if one wishes the target of manipulation to retain independence.

It can be done once... and twice... and given persistence N times... but each will require some interference. Because between such times, change occurs... wears away the point, dulls the blade...

...and surely if one conditions someone to dislike a particular form, a particular symbol... a capable opponent will cease resembling that symbol, and perhaps indeed temporarily borrow... the conditioner's own appearance.

Which leads me to suspect... that the Shadows' goals, being a feature they might not easily change... were the only thing Vorlons seriously tried to mis-represent... not that there was much of a true goal left to distort.

It appears that both sides had slipped away from their original goals. Vorlons held different ideas about what order meant... and apparently, a fair portion of Shadows no longer represented chaos, being fairly fine with centralized systems, avoidable degrees of order.

 

[vacantlook]

If the Shadows had been shown as beings of light, how do you show a being of light that is chaos based, light is light, not dark.

I know in the show light tended to be the side of order and good and darkness tended to be the side of chaos and evil, but I'd say light is no more order/good than dark. How many people would look at lightning and say it looks chaotic? Or the turbulance of a volcanic or solar erruption?

 

[fisheggs]

"Comes the Inquisitor" Vorlons are on Earth before tp gene becomes active(?), before we meet the Centari and acquire jumpgate tech/ability. Kosh: "Everyone"(either watch the show or look up the quote, Kosh didn't talk much and having a shadow ship on Mars makes me believe the Shadows were aware of us as well 1,000 years ago, "The Dark Ages" Remember JMS's timeline goes forward and back. Any post anywhere the timeline is listed? Officially of course!

 

[iamsheridan]

Sure, it seems the Vorlons, officially preferring order... invested slightly more resources in their propaganda team... perhaps even enough to conduct a few instances of species-wide genetic conditioning...

Maybe the Vorlons won the propaganda war in our part of the galaxy, but the shadows won it in another part. Around the Drakh homeworld, for instance...

/IamS

 

[MeadDrinker]

It doesn't matter. If you aren't strong and smart enough to see past the Vorlon propaganda then you deserve to fall by the wayside anyway.

Strength through Evolution! :devil:

 

[Flounder]

The glory of war!
The ecstasy of victory!

Ahem. Darkness could be seen as order, since there is not a lot of entropy going on, while light could be chaos.
Light could also be order, with equal wavelengths, while darkness could be chaos.