Endgadget article on B5 effects

[Springer]

There's an interesting article on Engadget looking at why B5 has been left to look so bad on Amazon.

https://www.engadget.com/2018/06/22/babylon-5-digital-video-quality/?guccounter=1

A couple of interesting tidbits that were new to me, at least. The author spoke to John Copeland, who confirmed what JMS said about the show existing on pristine 4:3 film reels in a WB warehouse somewhere that could be used to transfer to higher-resolution (though he's careful to state that it wouldn't be as good as true hi-def, but leagues better than what we have at the moment).

Copeland also says that the original plan for converting the effects shots to higher-def widescreen was to be done with something called Teranex, which would have successfully upgraded the FX shots at a cost of $1200 per episode, but WB didn't want to pay even that for the DVDs.

He also explains a little bit more about why Foundation Imaging stopped doing the effects after season 3, because Ron Thornton had asked for an extra $100,000 to do Severed Dreams. Sounds like the producers met his demands that time, but were worried he'd do it again and hold the show to ransom, so they parted ways.

Maybe we need to follow in the footsteps of fans of The Expanse – they got Amazon to pick up the show after a concerted campaign aimed at Jeff Bezos, including hiring an airplane to fly over Amazon HQ trailing a message. Bezos was speaking at some conference somewhere in front of engineers and scientists when he announced that Amazon Prime would save The Expanse, and sounded quite excited about it. If The Expanse hopefully does well for them, maybe he'll be looking for other SF shows to give a new life to. Anyone want to hire an airplane?

 

[Jan]

He also explains a little bit more about why Foundation Imaging stopped doing the effects after season 3, because Ron Thornton had asked for an extra $100,000 to do Severed Dreams. Sounds like the producers met his demands that time, but were worried he'd do it again and hold the show to ransom, so they parted ways.

I'm afraid I look at that bit askance and simply note that Copeland was on the Board of Directors for Netter Digital which later declared bankruptcy and took the B5 Fan Club down with it. His is hardly an unbiased view. And Ron Thornton's no longer around to dispute it.

 

[Springer]

He also explains a little bit more about why Foundation Imaging stopped doing the effects after season 3, because Ron Thornton had asked for an extra $100,000 to do Severed Dreams. Sounds like the producers met his demands that time, but were worried he'd do it again and hold the show to ransom, so they parted ways.

I'm afraid I look at that bit askance and simply note that Copeland was on the Board of Directors for Netter Digital which later declared bankruptcy and took the B5 Fan Club down with it. His is hardly an unbiased view. And Ron Thornton's no longer around to dispute it.

Is it really that controversial? JMS always said that the split from Foundation was monetary and being unwilling to meet their terms. Severed Dreams was a big episode and undoubtedly cost a lot. It stands to reason that the producers would be concerned about increasingly larger bills from Foundation whenever a big episode hit. Imagine how much they'd have charged for Endgame.

Anyway, that was only a minor part of the article. The most interesting part to me was about the Teranex. A lot of people suggested JMS was wrong when he said there were film reels of all the episodes, Copeland says he's correct.

 

[Looney]

The most interesting part to me was about the Teranex. A lot of people suggested JMS was wrong when he said there were film reels of all the episodes, Copeland says he's correct.

Yes that is definitely the most interesting part. It makes it sound as if there is hope. :thumbsup:

 

[Jan]

Is it really that controversial? JMS always said that the split from Foundation was monetary and being unwilling to meet their terms. Severed Dreams was a big episode and undoubtedly cost a lot. It stands to reason that the producers would be concerned about increasingly larger bills from Foundation whenever a big episode hit. Imagine how much they'd have charged for Endgame.

Suffice to say that there was a major conflict of interest there.

 

[Springer]

Is it really that controversial? JMS always said that the split from Foundation was monetary and being unwilling to meet their terms. Severed Dreams was a big episode and undoubtedly cost a lot. It stands to reason that the producers would be concerned about increasingly larger bills from Foundation whenever a big episode hit. Imagine how much they'd have charged for Endgame.

Suffice to say that there was a major conflict of interest there.

Ah, I see what you're referring to now. Since I have zero facts about that particular allegation, I'll bow out of that part of the discussion.

Still, it's interesting to know that it cost an extra $100,000 to do the effects for Severed Dreams. The average budget per episode for the show was about $800,000 wasn't it? It shows how ambitious an episode that was, and gives some indication of what the special effects cost. Season 3 in particular was very effects laden compared to the previous two seasons, I always wondered how they budgeted for it.

A bit more about Teranex here: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/uk/products/teranex

If only...

 

[Karajorma]

When it comes to Amazon and The Expanse, Jeff Bezos was actually a huge fan of the show and was rather annoyed that they didn't have the rights to it already.



So we've got to get him to watch B5 I guess.

 

[Triple F]

He also explains a little bit more about why Foundation Imaging stopped doing the effects after season 3, because Ron Thornton had asked for an extra $100,000 to do Severed Dreams. Sounds like the producers met his demands that time, but were worried he'd do it again and hold the show to ransom, so they parted ways.

I'm afraid I look at that bit askance and simply note that Copeland was on the Board of Directors for Netter Digital which later declared bankruptcy and took the B5 Fan Club down with it. His is hardly an unbiased view. And Ron Thornton's no longer around to dispute it.

Yeah, he’s lying in some attempt to cover his backside, and it’s a pretty outrageous (and rather silly and unnecessary) thing to do at this point. When putting B5Scrolls together we talked about the split as well and all I’ll say about that is he didn't dare to try and come out with that sort of nonsense as he knew that folks like Thornton were also contributing to the site. He knows what happened, and what part he played. Hell, even jms has come out and said that the split with Foundation Imaging was something that was orchestrated by Doug Netter. . . . and John Copeland played a big part in that as well (basically they’d spent a while creating conflict between jms and Foundation, and jms then unwittingly passed the lies he was being told onto fans when explaining the split. . . .). It *was * about money though, Netter wanted the FX budget for his own company. Here's what jms said a few years back.

“The shift away from Amiga and Foundation Imaging later had little to do with the platform involved and much to do with the fact that my associate, Doug Netter, wanted to start up his own CGI company with B5 as a launch platform. He pitched it to me as the right thing to do, and in time I signed on. In retrospect, I see that I was maneuvered into this more than a little, but I was new to showrunning and naïve in many ways. I’m far more cynical and less easily foxed now than I was.”

I’m very disappointed that Copeland is using Thornton's passing as an opportunity to come out with that complete crap about holding back FX shots unless he got 100,000 dollars and that's why Foundation had to go. Sigh – it’s ridiculous. What it illustrates though, is how blatantly fans can be lied to by producers like Copeland in order to try and influence perceptions, and rewrite the facts.


As for the Terranex thing, that’s not new news. . . . It’s on the B5Scrolls interview, as is most of what this new article reveals from Copeland. On this new article he also doesn’t say that there’s a film copy of the FX. That article is very confusingly put together with quotes and commentary from the author being intercut. What Copeland says (and which is completely correct) is that upres’ed copies of the FX can be dropped into any rescanned film of the live action. It’s two separate processes. Emphasis added by me.

"This company in Sweden, called Teranex, were way ahead of the curve in knowing people would need to upconvert standard def to high definition." Warners owned a Teranex box, and the idea was that, eventually, the 4:3 CGI sequences would be upconverted and integrated into the 16:9 footage.

John Copeland confirmed this, saying "They [Warner Bros.] have everything they would need, except for the pilot." (That's because the warehouse where the materials for the 1993 pilot movie The Gatheringwere stored were damaged by the Northridge earthquake.) "They could go back to the negative and, assemble the negative and re-transfer it in HD, and all they would have to do is upconvert the VFX footage and drop it into the holes."

There are no FX on film and that's why they have to be worked on separately (if they were on film, rescanning the film would upres them, but they aren’t, hence the separate process). Like I said this is nothing new. As for jms saying that all the FX were transferred to film and it’s just a matter or rescanning that film to produce hi-def copies . . . . sorry, but that just isn’t the case. Just like the other thing he said about the composite and roto work being produced at a 2K resolution (movies didn’t even do that until around the turn of the millennium)

 

[Looney]

SUCH A DOWNER BUDDY

But very informative. I sure wish I had a time machine. I really hate it when stuff like this happens.

So to clarify, are you saying that he is now trying to re-write history to cover the fact that it was all about making money now that the two top people involved in the incident are no longer with us? I put it that way because you pointed out that JMS felt like he was manipulated.

See Triple F this is one of those times when you really need to ask yourself, "Do I know too much?" :guffaw:

In all seriousness though, this is a prime example of why I fear learning too much about these people and what happened. I want to live in the bliss of thinking everyone who made Babylon 5 is perfect and Warner Brothers is the villain despite the fact that I own many of their movies and I worship TCM (I know WB doesn't have that much to do with TCM, but it is enough.) I know it isn't reality, but my reality is that I love B5 and learning the continued imperfections of those who made it makes me question opinions I've had in the past. Maybe WB isn't the villain? Maybe WB simply reacted to Netter or Copeland when it came to issues with the show? Maybe WB didn't like dealing with them so they didn't want to go all in with spin-offs and straight to DVD releases? Maybe JMS is on an enemy's list on the Warner backlot and it has been set in stone that they will never give up their stake in B5 if it means he can do something with it? And maybe it is just all about Mira Furlan? :wtf:

:guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw:

OMG! I just got soooo sad because I wanted to write "Stephen Furst" as the name in that joke. I was trying to think of the actors who likely created the least amount of issues for the show, when speaking of issues they could control, and those were the first two names that popped in my head. I mean I don't know them, but in my imagination I see Mira and Stephen as two of the actors who likely did their jobs and didn't ruffle too many feathers. It is a complete product of my imagination based only on a few things I've read and two VERY brief encounters with both individuals. DON'T RUIN IT!!!!!

I do appreciate the truth. In this day and age Copeland should know better. At least he should have worded things better. Maybe he genuinely had a real issue dealing with Foundation, but he definitely had something to gain from the change and he should always consider that people know that fact and be upfront about it. If there is one thing we all have come to learn it is that many lie to the public and those lies are revealed pretty quickly. The sad thing is how many don't care that it is a lie or deny that it is a lie. And now I am off on a different tangent.

 

[Triple F]

SUCH A DOWNER BUDDY
See Triple F this is one of those times when you really need to ask yourself, "Do I know too much?"

You’ve no idea. And yeah, in many ways I really wish I never started that learning exercise in how to code up a basic web page. You can most certainly learn too much, and it can be a bad thing especially if you make the mistake of telling fans who believe something else (It’s why - after learning that lesson - I don’t post much on forums as the urge to correct some of the many, and often repeated misconceptions is stronger than it should be). It’s why I’ve also held back on the content of B5Scrolls – there’s stuff even I wouldn’t share, and that’s before you get to the off the record bits. . . . but I’ll throw this out there. . . . . . . On second thoughts, no I wont – this is neither the time nor place. (but check out who was the THIRD named recipient of the emmy for the visual FX - besides Bryant and Thornton - and who doesn't get mentioned anywhere on the published version of B5Scrolls – I’m surprised no one ever asked about why that is).

But yeah, for a while there John Copeland, Netter and some within the Netter crew continued to feed jms nonsense, even after the split, and sometimes (unfortunately) he’d repeat it online believing it to be accurate – you can find it happening if you look through the google groups. Like here for example which is a rare instance of both JMS and Ron Thornton taking part on the same thread – as he felt he had to respond to this one. (you won’t find those sort of things in any book : )

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/uk.media.tv.sf.babylon5/Umt10mhTJTs


You need to scroll down a bit to find jms’s comments, then a bit more to see Thornton’s response. But basically jms was being told that FI was blocking the two guys who stole the 3D assets from FI’s servers in order for Netter to get hold of them (as Babylonain signed a contract that only gave them rights to the FX shots, not the 3D models) from joining the academy . . . What jms wasn’t being told was that they’d grossly overstated their experience and that’s why they got knocked back. . . . . That sort of whispering in his ear helped prolong a feud which they created just to get hold of the FX budget after Thornton and Bryant declined Netter's deal when he tried to take control of FI.

One of the bits many fans don’t realise – and which might help explain a few of the things some have wondered about - is that Netter was NOT an equal partner with Straczynski, Netter was the senior partner – owning 51% of Babylonian Productions, and he was an experienced Hollywood player, while Joe was a relative newbie (at that level of game play at least). Anyway. Again, This is neither the time nor place, and I only brought up the details in the original post because Copeland REALLY shouldn’t have made a ridiculous (and stupid) claim like that. He was well out of order.

As for why he’s making comments like that at this late stage – bugger knows exactly why. But Producers are *very* political animals as well as business is business, and in Hollywood reputation is everything. But even if one person believes it then they can raise doubts to others whenever the topic is discussed – and raising uncertainty like that (no matter how ridiculous) is common when it comes to mass media, and it’s manipulation. Someone will always believe it, and why wouldn't they if no one tells them otherwise . . . . .

It does have it’s funny side though, I’ve got this image of Thornton holding a gun to a computer and threatening to blow its brains out if they don’t come up with the cash and a fast plane to Cuba.

 

[Looney]

M . . . .U . . . .S . . . T BREAK F . . . R . . . E . . .E . . .

You are pulling . . . me into . . . your web of . . . toooo . . . muchhhh . . . knowledge . . . . .

:guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw:

I really do wish I could tell you how much I appreciate your efforts over the years. If there is one thing fans of B5 can say it is that they can always turn to you if they want to cut through the B.S. :thumbsup: I know it might be better to be blissfully ignorant of such matters, but I am a HUGE believer in giving credit where credit is due. I am not someone who thinks JMS tries to steal all of the credit for himself, but I do know there are many people who have maybe never gotten the praise they deserve for what they contributed to the show. I am by no means suggesting that JMS purposely denied them that credit or had anything to do with that situation, just that circumstances in most businesses lead to underappreciated contributors. In that regard it is important that knowledge like this be readily available in case history starts to tell the story differently. When Babylon 5 becomes a religion in fifty years all of the contributors names should be remembered, unless they genuinely deserve no credit.

 

[Springer]

Ugh, once again I come away from this website wishing I hadn't started a thread.

I honestly dislike reading about all the politics and back-biting behind the scenes. Mostly because it seems people take sides and have agendas. To quote B5, "there's your truth, my truth, and the real truth in between." I suspect the real truth is somewhere in between.

As for the individual creators not getting recognition – I was watching the show from the beginning. I bought all the science fiction mags with B5 articles, went to as many conventions as I could. There were plenty of articles and interviews with people like John Iacovelli, John Flinn, Ann Bruice Aling, various directors, various Optic Nerve and Foundation people, Chris Franke, George Jenson, the Official B5 magazine was filled with interviews with the crew, everyone from casting to grips. I met behind-the-scenes crew at conventions and got their autographs. I knew all their names and what they did just as well as the actors and JMS. So to say they've never got credit, that's rubbish – I can go to my file of old B5 articles right now and pull out a ton of interviews that says otherwise. Many of the behind-the-scenes creators did get well-deserved recognition in the media, or they certainly did at the time.

Maybe it was different in the online groups where JMS was so prominent – I don't know, I wasn't online at the time – but the online groups shouldn't be used as the sole measure of all things B5.

 

[Jan]

I honestly dislike reading about all the politics and back-biting behind the scenes. Mostly because it seems people take sides and have agendas. To quote B5, "there's your truth, my truth, and the real truth in between." I suspect the real truth is somewhere in between.

Technically, it's ""Understanding is a three edged sword." Three sides. Your side. Their side. And the truth."

As for the individual creators not getting recognition – I was watching the show from the beginning. I bought all the science fiction mags with B5 articles, went to as many conventions as I could. There were plenty of articles and interviews with people like John Iacovelli, John Flinn, Ann Bruice Aling, various directors, various Optic Nerve and Foundation people, Chris Franke, George Jenson, the Official B5 magazine was filled with interviews with the crew, everyone from casting to grips. I met behind-the-scenes crew at conventions and got their autographs. I knew all their names and what they did just as well as the actors and JMS. So to say they've never got credit, that's rubbish – I can go to my file of old B5 articles right now and pull out a ton of interviews that says otherwise. Many of the behind-the-scenes creators did get well-deserved recognition in the media, or they certainly did at the time.

Maybe it was different in the online groups where JMS was so prominent – I don't know, I wasn't online at the time – but the online groups shouldn't be used as the sole measure of all things B5.

Thanks for the corroboration; I've been saying that for years now. Many people came to the scene late and only know what they found online. I've tried to explain that the support staff were given a lot of time in the spotlight.

 

[Triple F]

Sure, whatever (and yeah, I’ve said, and shown – and still maintain - that online there was/is way too much credit being handed to jms for things he had basically nothing to do with). But I thought I was talking about visual FX not being on film and John Copeland talking complete crap (and why he might be doing it after Looney asked) – I could have sworn that's what I was doing - and I like the “I suspect the real truth is somewhere in between” . . . . that so didn't confirm one of the points touched on. Anyway, My mistake for commenting – I forget once in a while and slip into doing it . . . . . . OK, here goes. . . . .

I really hope that Amazon gets hold of those film transfers (which don’t exist but I have faith) so we can get that hi-def version of the show Joe was telling us about. Warner really hate B5 hopefully Amazon will do what's needed to get it . . . . and that Thornton guy had some nerve on him, I really liked the episode Severed Dreams and I would have been sad if they never paid him that 100,000 to release the FX for it. . . . . Faith manages, and all that. Was that better!?

Sorry, now I'm just being a little rude. I'll leave you to your discussions.

BTW. Genuinely nice conversation loon – it was interesting - you really need to change your tag, as a serious (and sincere) comment like that just sounds so wrong being directed to ‘Looney’.

 

[Looney]

(Sorry about this, but I won't have what I said be this much of a point of contention just because I am an idiot.)

Woh! Woh! Woh! Talk about hitting a TRIGGER!!!!! :wtf: What did I say?! In my mind what I was saying was a lot less dramatic then what you all reacted to. But I know I accidentally hit on a topic that has been a point of argument for years now. I admit that I chose my words poorly when I said "there are many people who have maybe never gotten the praise they deserve for what they contributed to the show." I was thinking of the little people, like the set dresser who suggested one little change in Season One that became a big part of the background through the entire series. (That is a fabricated example from my imagination.) I was thinking of contributions like that from people who's names even die-hard fans will never know. I didn't mean to suggest people were not getting credit or were being denied credit. I meant you never want a person's contribution to be lost. And you never want their contributions to be lost to other people's versions of what happened. I was just pointing out that it is good people like Triple F have taken on the burden of knowing too much so I don't have too. But in all seriousness it is always good to know two edges of the sword so you can sort out that third edge.

I wasn't trying to cause a debate. I just hit a trigger phrase with how I worded what I was trying to say. There is always going to be bickering, backstabbing, and B.S. behind the scenes of any entertainment production. Having someone like Triple F who knows something about that is great. Does that mean Triple F knows everything and Triple F's version is always correct? NOPE. (Sorry T.F.) It is just more trivia to add to the spectrum of the B5 Universe. It is sometimes negative trivia, but it is what it is. Triple F has heard and read certain sides of stories and other people have their sides of stories. It is all grey.

It just happens that the topic I chose to mention has historically been a point of argument and I apologize for not being more specific. I know Jan, Triple F, and others have had to deal with A LOT of B.S., mis-information, and even bickering among themselves over the years. I didn't mean to touch on that fire. I just often think about all of the people who's names we'll never know who gave a lot to make Babylon 5 happen. Their names were never in the credits or on any of the awards and that is sad to me. People like Triple F have made the effort to find out some of those names and that is very important. Triple F has valid and interesting points to make. They often come off with a twist of negativity because they have to do with the reality of the fantasy we all love, but that three edged sword is something we always need to remember.

My side may not completely gel with Triple F's side.

Triple F's side may not gel with what I know.

The truth is that neither of us were there and even if we had been our version of who did what when might be COMPLETELY different from what other's who were there might say.

Here is something I want you all to remember, B5 has been gone a long time and many of these same names are STILL talking about it. That says something. Just remember how long you all have been talking and debating this stuff every time that frustration sets in because dumbasses like Looney didn't choose their words more carefully when trying to express how much they value another members contributions. I know it may seem like you have been arguing for years because you have , but don't forget what is at the core of why those arguments came into existence. It isn't just your love for Babylon 5; it is your love for reading what other people want to share with you about Babylon 5. (Owe! I fell off my soap box.) :wtf:

And come on Triple F!!!!! You have read what I write. How could I call myself anything but a Looney?! :angel:

 

[Springer]

Woh! Woh! Woh! Talk about hitting a TRIGGER!!!!! :wtf: What did I say?! In my mind what I was saying was a lot less dramatic then what you all reacted to. But I know I accidentally hit on a topic that has been a point of argument for years now.

Sorry Looney, hope you don't think I was having a go at you! You didn't say anything wrong in my mind!

TripleF – come on. In your posts that I've seen and on the B5 Scrolls website, you've always taken the side against the producers, to the point of bitterness. Looney mentioned people not getting credited – which is tied in with the Foundation thing, so not completely off topic – and having seen you make that statement too many times before, yes I guess I was 'triggered'.

And you know, even if Copeland and Netter did the dirty on Foundation Imaging, they were the producers, it was their show! If they wanted to give Foundation the boot for whatever reason, however spurious, and launch Netter Digital, then they were entitled to do so, whether we liked it or not. Reading between the lines it sounds like both sides did things to piss each other off. But I have no reason to believe Ron Thornton's or Mojo's side of things any more than John Copeland's. None of us were there, none of us saw what really happened, and statements made by either side afterwards are obviously going to be heavily biased towards their own point of view. As I tried to say above in the quote that Jan corrected for me, the truth of what happened is probably somewhere in between.

If people in the online community at the time didn't recognise the talents of people behind the scenes then that is disappointing and those people have missed out because there are lots of interesting stories about how B5 was made. Your B5 Scrolls website had some of those stories. I guess the Internet was still in its infancy back then and there wasn't the magazine-style websites that we have today. If all those interviews in print magazines like TV Zone, Starburst, SFX, Cinefantastique, Cult Times, Starlog, Dreamwatch, the Official B5 Mag etc were linked online, more fans might have seen them. (You know, you can still pick up all these magazines cheap on eBay and read those interviews.) I guess it was another example of the way the rest of the world had to catch up with what B5 was doing.

And I would agree that, for new fans picking up the show on Amazon Prime, the existing fan community should make sure that those behind-the-scenes people who made the show do get credit in online articles and discussions.

I think we can all agree that without Copeland and Netter, B5 probably would never have been made, and without the genius of Ron Thornton, B5 probably would never have been made; it certainly wouldn't have been as good. They were all vital to the show, and any disagreements or fall outs they had were over 20 years ago. Maybe it's time to let it lie and focus on the positive things they all did for the show.

 

[Looney]

Woh! Woh! Woh! Talk about hitting a TRIGGER!!!!! :wtf: What did I say?! In my mind what I was saying was a lot less dramatic then what you all reacted to. But I know I accidentally hit on a topic that has been a point of argument for years now.

Sorry Looney, hope you don't think I was having a go at you! You didn't say anything wrong in my mind!

TripleF – come on. In your posts that I've seen and on the B5 Scrolls website, you've always taken the side against the producers, to the point of bitterness. Looney mentioned people not getting credited – which is tied in with the Foundation thing, so not completely off topic – and having seen you make that statement too many times before, yes I guess I was 'triggered'.

And you know, even if Copeland and Netter did the dirty on Foundation Imaging, they were the producers, it was their show! If they wanted to give Foundation the boot for whatever reason, however spurious, and launch Netter Digital, then they were entitled to do so, whether we liked it or not. Reading between the lines it sounds like both sides did things to piss each other off. But I have no reason to believe Ron Thornton's or Mojo's side of things any more than John Copeland's. None of us were there, none of us saw what really happened, and statements made by either side afterwards are obviously going to be heavily biased towards their own point of view. As I tried to say above in the quote that Jan corrected for me, the truth of what happened is probably somewhere in between.

If people in the online community at the time didn't recognise the talents of people behind the scenes then that is disappointing and those people have missed out because there are lots of interesting stories about how B5 was made. Your B5 Scrolls website had some of those stories. I guess the Internet was still in its infancy back then and there wasn't the magazine-style websites that we have today. If all those interviews in print magazines like TV Zone, Starburst, SFX, Cinefantastique, Cult Times, Starlog, Dreamwatch, the Official B5 Mag etc were linked online, more fans might have seen them. (You know, you can still pick up all these magazines cheap on eBay and read those interviews.) I guess it was another example of the way the rest of the world had to catch up with what B5 was doing.

And I would agree that, for new fans picking up the show on Amazon Prime, the existing fan community should make sure that those behind-the-scenes people who made the show do get credit in online articles and discussions.

I think we can all agree that without Copeland and Netter, B5 probably would never have been made, and without the genius of Ron Thornton, B5 probably would never have been made; it certainly wouldn't have been as good. They were all vital to the show, and any disagreements or fall outs they had were over 20 years ago. Maybe it's time to let it lie and focus on the positive things they all did for the show.

Very well said, but I will point out that I REALLY was not talking about the "Foundation" thing. I seriously do think about people like Bill Blair, Warren Tabata, Kim Strauss, Mark Hendrickson, and many others who put hours and hours of their lives into making B5 what it became. Those people actually got their names in the credits a few times, but there are many others who did those actor's makeup or fed them whom did not. Yes, I can see how that might lead people to associate that with the Foundation discussion, but that is not what I was thinking when I wasn't more specific. I was saying I appreciate Triple F's efforts to find out who some of the individuals are because it would be tragic if someone worked very hard to help make any episode of B5 a reality and nobody remembered it.

And BTW, I am sooo glad I kept so many of those magazines. Someday I swear I will get some of them out and read them again. Back in the 90's if it said Babylon 5 anywhere on the cover or if by some miracle there was a Babylon 5 cover I snatched it up. I don't even think I read all of them. And to be honest some of the reason I snatched it up was because that stuff was so rare around here. I often had to go many miles to the nearest Barnes & Noble to find those magazines, so I likely don't have too impressive a horde of materials.

 

[Springer]

Very well said, but I will point out that I REALLY was not talking about the "Foundation" thing.

My sincere apologies if I misrepresented what you said.

 

[Looney]

Very well said, but I will point out that I REALLY was not talking about the "Foundation" thing.

My sincere apologies if I misrepresented what you said.

You said it like it seemed. The way I phrased it meant most people who know about these things would immediately infer I was talking about the "Foundation" thing. I just wanted it to be crystal clear that was not my intention. No reason to apologize because you were stating the obvious. What I said would cause people to immediately tie it to the "Foundation" thing because I wasn't more specific with my choice of words. :thumbsup: