Effects cropped on B5 DVD causes problems

[vorlon47]

Everyone seems to be praising that the DVD is in widescreen and all, but the effects having been filmed in 4:3 AR, getting chopped off not only affects the external spacescenes, but the scenes with any kind of effect on screen at all. Does that mean when we see two Franklins in Shadow Dancing it will be cropped, and thus, crappy resolution. Whenever it cuts to a scene of the crew inside the whitestar and there is a window revealing hyperspace outside, that itself would be an effect shot and cropped. So the people would look fuzzier etc.
I would rather they were all re-released in 4:3 with no noticable effect resolution changes and no scratches all over the place.
I don't think it is ready for widescreen. I think at least they should offer the option of releasing a 4:3 version.

 

[Recoil]

Im not sure what you are talking about. Ive watched all 2 seasons on DVD on my 65" HDTV and didnt notice ANY issues with this. It doesnt look cropped to me. And as far as it being shown on 4:3 format if you have a 4:3 TV...well thats how it is on Sci-Fi channel essentially so why wouldnt it work?

Besides, I dont believe a 4:3 version exists per say. Wasnt the show FILMED in widescreen?

 

[Maagic]

I'm no expert on aspect ratios and cropping and all that either... it looks just fine to me.

 

[KoshN]

Everyone seems to be praising that the DVD is in widescreen and all, but the effects having been filmed in 4:3 AR, getting chopped off not only affects the external spacescenes, but the scenes with any kind of effect on screen at all. Does that mean when we see two Franklins in Shadow Dancing it will be cropped, and thus, crappy resolution. Whenever it cuts to a scene of the crew inside the whitestar and there is a window revealing hyperspace outside, that itself would be an effect shot and cropped. So the people would look fuzzier etc.
I would rather they were all re-released in 4:3 with no noticable effect resolution changes and no scratches all over the place.
I don't think it is ready for widescreen. I think at least they should offer the option of releasing a 4:3 version.

Where have you been (said in my best Galen voice)? See:

Cropped CGI Screencaps and Discussion (in the "Room for Rangers" Thread)

...and more specifically my #13599 - 02/09/2002 04:37 PM post:


KoshN's Screencap Examples ( B5 4:3 Laserdiscs vs. Sci-Fi's "Widescreen" Version)
...which is best viewed the the window maximized, so the screencaps are side-by-side.

 

[Recoil]

Well isnt this because it was filmed in Widescreen? If they are to trim it to fit on a 4:3 TV then yes they WILL need to crop some of it off, but its just non-vital areas around the edges. I mean if you film something for 16:9 and need to squeeze it down to 4:3 something's gotta give.

I have a 16:9 TV so obviously I have no complaints about the DVDs

 

[KoshN]

Im not sure what you are talking about. Ive watched all 2 seasons on DVD on my 65" HDTV and didnt notice ANY issues with this. It doesnt look cropped to me. And as far as it being shown on 4:3 format if you have a 4:3 TV...well thats how it is on Sci-Fi channel essentially so why wouldnt it work?

Besides, I dont believe a 4:3 version exists per say. Wasnt the show FILMED in widescreen?

Recoil, I was sure you knew this.

B5 video widescreen / full screen comparison

How Film Is Transferred to Video by Henrik 'Leopold' Herranen

All the live action after "The Gathering" was filmed in Super35 (roughly 1.6:1). The 1.77:1 version we're seeing on Sci-Fi and on DVD represents a slight cropping of the top and/or bottom of the frame.

ALL the CGI was rendered 4:3 (as far as we've been told, but who knows about "Crusade" and "To Live and Die in Starlight" ?). As a result, all the 100% CGI scenes (no live action at all) and Composite CGI scenes (containing CGI and live action) were made 4:3. Without re-rendering and re-compositing, the existing 4:3 has to be cropped on the top and/or bottom, and then enlarged to reach the left and right edges of the 16:9 frame. You can also think of it as enlarging the 4:3 frame to cover the left and right edges of the 16:9 frame, and the stuff that overflows the top and bottom edges of the 16:9 frame, is gone.

Now that Warner Brothers has "lost" all the CGI files ("loss" discovered during the production of "To Live and Die in Starlight"), there is no way to re-render and re-composite to make a 16:9 version with uncropped CGI/Composite CGI scenes. Even if Warner Brothers hadn't "lost" the files, they wouldn't take the time, money and effort to re-render and re-composite all the scenes that contained any CGI.

I don't know if there are unscratched 4:3 versions of everything laying around that they could even put on DVD, even if they wanted to do so. I also don't know if there is any unscratched film with which they could make new, pristine 4:3 masters, to put on DVD. I've asked JMS, and he hasn't answered, probably because he doesn't want to reignite this very controversy (likely hurting current 16:9 DVD sales).

Basically, we're stuck with the 16:9 versions that we're seeing now, and there's no going back to 4:3, to get 100% of the CGI picture area. I just wish to whatever deity you may or may not believe in that they'd digitally fix at least the worst of the dust, scratches and other film defects.

ps. I am not convinced that Warner Brothers actually lost the B5 CGI (the files used to make the CGI for the Babylon 5 and Crusade TV shows). That's what they told JMS when he asked for the CGI to use in TLaDiS. I suspect it's more of a way of Warner Brothers defusing criticism for not doing a re-render/re-composite for the DVDs. This way, they can throw up their hands and say "We lost 'em. Oops! Sorry! Can't make the 16:9 CGI now. This is the best we can do." BTW, they were able to use the CGI files that they gave to Sierra for the aborted video game. That's the only reason we see any familiar CGI from B5 in TLaDiS, even in the distance (Nials, Whitestars, transports, B5 itself barely rotating, etc.).

 

[KoshN]

Well isnt this because it was filmed in Widescreen? If they are to trim it to fit on a 4:3 TV then yes they WILL need to crop some of it off, but its just non-vital areas around the edges. I mean if you film something for 16:9 and need to squeeze it down to 4:3 something's gotta give.

I have a 16:9 TV so obviously I have no complaints about the DVDs

You've got it partially backwards.

The Gathering was done completely in 4:3.

After The Gathering, the live action was filmed widescreen, Super35 (roughly 1.6:1).

The CGI was made 4:3.

In all the years we saw B5 prior to the Sci-Fi widescreen airings (in syndication, on TNT, on the Columbia House and WHV VHS tapes, and on the Image Entertainment Laserdiscs), we saw live action that was cropped left and right to fit 4:3, and the entire 4:3 CGI frame. Now, on the Sci-Fi "Widescreen" airings and on the DVDs, we're seeing the opposite. However, while the live action was shot so the stuff outside of the 4:3 picture area contained unimportant material (usually empty space), this top & bottom cropping of all CGI/Composite CGI results in less expansive CGI views of space, and sometimes cropped bits of live action that should not be cropped.

However, it's all a moot point, because there is no going back, because Warner Brothers said they lost the B5 CGI files. The bridge has been burned, and there is no money, or time, or the will to build a new bridge, and even if there was, the process of rebuilding everything would undoubtedly introduce more mistakes. If they don't know which end of a Minbari Sharlin Warcruiser is up (to put on a Season 2 DVD pamphlet), and they have Nials flying backward in TLaDiS (showing lack of attention to detail), do you honestly think that Warner Home Video has the capability or the will to re-render and re-composite all B5 CGI and get it all right? I have a better chance of winning the Powerball jackpot.

 

[vorlon47]

I have a Widescreen TV.
When in 16:9 aspect ratio which is how the b5 dvd is meant to be viewed, you can notice that any cgi shot has a lower resolution.
i realise totally this is because the only cgi material was 'filmed' in 4:3 aspect ratio. So they have had to be cropped at the top and bottom and zoomed in to fill the screen. All I'm saying is, will two Franklins on screen at the same time (in series 3 ep SHADOW DANCING) constitute a cgi shot? It will effect more than just external space scenes. Someone must know what i'm on about.

 

[KoshN]

All I'm saying is, will two Franklins on screen at the same time (in series 3 ep SHADOW DANCING) constitute a cgi shot?

I doubt it. Filmmakers have been doing that kind of trick shot long before there was CGI.

 

[Recoil]

Yea, thats not computer animation. Different ball game...