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Downbelow

H

HidaJiremi

New member
Hello all,

I'm new here and I wanted to ask a few questions of long time fans of the series. Currently, I'm working on a project for Mongoose Publishing (the producers of the Babylon 5 roleplaying game) about Downbelow and the lurkers. I have more than a few ideas of my own about the topic (otherwise I wouldn't be writing the book!) but I wanted to get some broadbase fan speculation regarding Downbelow.

In the opinion of all you lurkers out there, what are Downbelow's specifics? Population? Demographics? What would you like to see explored in such a work, or what do you think should be avoided? The more voices I hear on this, the better I can make the book - after all, more points of view can only be better in the pre-writing process.

I appreciate any and all help you are all wlling to offer. Thank you very much.

Hida Jiremi
(Jeremy Puckett)

"Mercy shown to the guilty is base treason to the innocent." -Terry Goodkind
 
The lurkers are the very poor. I suspect that they are less than 5% of the population about 13 thousand people. You could check this against the homeless in places like Malta, Singapore or a Middle American town with a population of a quarter of million people.

The TV program showed them as being a mixture of races. There were some good views in the MoW 'A Call to Arms'.

If you expand downbelow to cover all of Brown Sector you may end up with say 20% of the population say 50 thousand people. Many of whom will have jobs.
 
Season 3 is a great reference for downbelow. Any episode that has elements from Marcus or Dr. Franklin (while on his walkabout) give insights into the culture of downbelow.

Downbelow is sometimes interchangeably used with Brown sector (the "unused" portions of the station). The residents were generally human, but I do remember spotting races like the Hayach, Drazi, and Pak-Ma-Ra quite frequently.

Downbelow has rempant crime, drug dealing, and human explotation (by questionable traders - season 1 finale). A good place to compare to downbleow would be south central LA. There are hidden gems in any ghetto - like the episode where Kosh shows Sheridan a moment of absolute beauty.

Things to focus on in writing: Try episode called "Exogenesis" for character ideas. Remember that crime, and illegal activity are everywhere, but so are honest people down on their luck. Rangers use downbelow quite a bit ("We walk into places no others will enter").
 
Season 4's Illusion of Truth shows some of the lurkers. There are several eps that do or that show scenes of Downbelow throughout the series, but this one comes to mind because Lennier takes Dan Randall on a tour down there.
 
Yeah, study modern-day homelessness, but forget shelter from the elements. I rather expect parts of the station would be quite cold -- no need/money to heat them -- but other than that they should be mostly dry and sheltered.

The worst parts of Downbelow are uninhabited (cf. "There All the Honor Lies"). As a result Downbelow is quite popular for covert/criminal operations of all sorts. The Rangers were showing having lots of contacts in Donwbelow but I strongly suspect that all the Ambassadors do as well -- especially G'Kar.

Law and order is essentially unknown. Security will come through every now and then, but Garibaldi and his successors have their hands full with the rest of the station. The Rangers will keep things calm when they can and when it doesn't interfere with their duties, but it's not really their job. So crime flourishes and crime lords prosper. We saw several -- N'Grath and Deuce in Season One, the smuggler in Season Three ("Dust to Dust"), and the short-lived crime boss who got offed by the Rangers in "Learning Curve." Crime probably offers the best stories, as most of the time people in Downbelow are going about the unglamorous business of survival. Petty thievery is probably the most common type of crime, and criminals are not generally well-armed as weapons have to get onto the station somehow and Security can seal off most such shipments.

Black Ops (PsiCorps maneuvering, espionage by the races, etc.) and crime will be the best for stories and plot potential.
 
There is one scene, I believe in Season 2's There All Honor Lies, in which Kosh guides Sheridan to a bad part of Downbelow in order to show him one moment of perfect beauty. The moment involves a chorus of skilled male voices singing to Sheridan "in the dark".

I've always wondered... Who was singing? Humans, aliens, or both? Were they hired by the Vorlons, or were they Rangers, or were they some form of local zealots privy to Vorlon philosophy? It never is explained where they came from, who they were, or whether there was more to the "one moment of perfect beauty" that may have taken place off-camera.

I think this examples, combined with Brother Edward's monks (from Convictions) who willingly live in Downbelow and the cult (from Grey 17 is Missing) who hide out in nearby Grey Sector, proves that there are religious and/or philosophical groups that make their home in the seedier areas of the station. It would be interesting to explore that aspect of Downbelow as a counterpoint to the dominance of crime.
 
Thanks ever so much for everyone who's posted on this topic so far! Keep it up! Many of these things I had already thought of in my preliminary notes, but many are different takes on them. I would especially like to thank you for the reminder about the importance of religion in Downbelow, a topic I hadn't even thought about.

An important question here as well is, what level of organization do you believe there is in Downbelow's criminals? Are they mostly independent? Are there gangs? Do the syndicates control everything? Is there a "crime guild"? These things in particular were never covered in the show in great detail, and I'd like to get some input on them.

Keep the ideas flowing, everyone!

Hida Jiremi
(Jeremy Puckett)
 
I don't remember the organization of crime in Downbelow ever being referred to as gangs, but there is definitely some kind of competition that goes on. Gangs, even if never mentioned, could be a strong possibilty.

There also seems to be crime boss of some kind at all times. At one time, N'Grath was a crime boss of sorts, and later, he was replaced by some guy with a strong Australian or British accent. Whether they control one type of crime or one area or whether they cover it all, I'm not sure.

The introduction of the Crusade character Dureena Nafeel also includes the introduction of the thieves guild. There is a branch of the thieves guild on Babylon 5. They have a leader. He's blind and has "assistants" to help him out. They have a covert form of communication using strategically placed symbols that they stick on bulkheads.

I think some of the forms of thievery they mention are fencing, extortion, and pickpocketing (maybe burglary too). They try to stick to crimes that have high profit but low violence. That way they don't attract too much attention from security. They approach thievery as a business instead of crime (except for being discreet and cautious, of course). If you join, instead of working independent, you get the support of the guild, but I think you have to contribute a certain percentage of your income back to the guild (for the greater cause).

I think the thieves guild is introduced in the TV movie A Call to Arms, which should be coming out on DVD later this month.

Another interesting side topic may be the exploration of the ombuds office. While people get away with a lot in Downbelow, surely a few crimes get prosectued now and then. Unfortunately, the ombudsmen are not covered much in the series, so some info may have to be borrowed from real life ombuds offices.
 
Crime Bosses are the top dogs in downbelow. Deuce ran "half the rackets". There was the Aussie guy in season 5. They are very similar to mob bosses. When deuce is on trial before the ombudsman, he "offs" a witness, which allows him to get off scott free.

There are "gangs" of sorts, or rather roving gangs of thugs. Season 5 is a good example with the telepath hater (the one who was beaten to death by Byron's crew.

N'Grath was a high class crime lord, but resided in green sector (the alien sector). N'Grath was the one to go to if you needed anything. G'Kar goes to him(?) for a bodyguard.

It would be interesting if a fleshing out of the B5 legal system could be done (particularly with JMS approval). It was always a bit weak in the series. There are lawyers, and judges (aka ombudsman), and military tribunals, but what about any other present do legal stuff. Death Penelty is rarely used (Passing Thru Gesthename), mostly mind-wipes are "capital punishment".

Don't forget to about the telepaths (and were not talking about Byron). First, Dust. Dust was a major drug in the B5 universe, with actual drug runners on B5 (Dust to Dust). We also learn that the drug may have been designed by Psi-Corps. Also, during the Psi-Corp's existence (remember they were disbanded roughly 3-5 years after the birth of the interstellar alliance), Dr. Franklin helped out with an "underground railroad" to help rouge telepaths escape the Psi Corp.

I like the idea of the Theives Guild. A lot could be done with that.
 
I've always wondered... Who was singing? Humans, aliens, or both? Were they hired by the Vorlons, or were they Rangers, or were they some form of local zealots privy to Vorlon philosophy? It never is explained where they came from, who they were, or whether there was more to the "one moment of perfect beauty" that may have taken place off-camera.
Click to expand...

I thought this was debated here once, but I don't remember when and in which thread. :eek:
 
It was -- someone speculated that it was the Pak'mara singing, because according to Vir they sing beautifully. I don't remember the rest of the discussion either, though.
 
It has also been suggested that Kosh may have put this into Sheridan's mind. I don't believe that, though. According to the Lurker's Guide, the song is a Gregorian Chant, part of the Christmas Mass, but I don't believe we are meant to recognize it as being part of a human religion. To me, it was meant to demonstrate that beauty can be anywhere, even in the lowliest circumstances... "Beauty... in the dark."
 
It has also been suggested that Kosh may have put this into Sheridan's mind. I don't believe that, though. According to the Lurker's Guide, the song is a Gregorian Chant, part of the Christmas Mass, but I don't believe we are meant to recognize it as being part of a human religion. To me, it was meant to demonstrate that beauty can be anywhere, even in the lowliest circumstances... "Beauty... in the dark."
Click to expand...

It's worth noting that the same chant was heard in the episode "Passing Through Gethsemane" while Brother Edward was in the chapel which makes it unlikely that Kosh put the song in Sheridan's mind. Given that a cross was prominently featured, I don't think that it was meant to be unrecognized. The fact of its' beauty was the point. That it was a religious chant was incidental in 'There All Honor Lies' but completely relevant to 'Gethsemane'.

Jan
 
One thing that I don´t understand, specially if you think in terms of the 21st century is why Earth Alliance never send ships and Special Forces to clean up the place and bring them back to Earth or wherever they belong.

One could ask why they don´t do this with illegal immigrants in need, these days, but I assume that society has evolved in 200 years. Not counting that keepping people on a Space Station must be very expensive even then. Or they could find a way to make the Down Below area in something more productive.

I´m not trying to find flaws in a story that I admire so much for so long, but this bothers me.
Just something to talk about while we waiting and waiting and waiting... :D



Almir
 
The same reason we have homeless in this day and age: people don't give a damn. The EA had problems bigger than homeless people on a space station (i.e. internal strife, recovering from a major war). They only started making noises about it after B5 broke away, to turn it into a propaganda issue, and sending a fleet of ships to "set them free"... well, we saw how well that worked the first time, didn't we? ;)
 
If there wasn't enough funding to keep B5's docks running smoothly -- something on which actual money hinged -- then why would anyone in the EA spend money doing something about people that no one, as PR observed, cared about?
 
Yea, what he said. Like that one lady said to her little girl, it's their own fault, their lazy and don't want to work, we don't have homeless back on Earth (Paraphrased)
 
Yea, Julia Mussante was a piece of work, wasn't she?

Sorry for the off-topic ramble, but figured it was better than creating a new topic. I've searched and apparently don't know how to use the search feature, as everything came up. Can someone who has better luck with the search feature please bump a thread dealing with Catherine Sakai? Specifically I was looking for the debate about if she and Valen ever did hook up, and the other big debate about, if they did hook-up, would she have had to (or been able to) use the Chrysalis herself to become partially (or fully) Minbari.
 
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