Cure for the Plague, (I think this would do it)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Greetings all,

this is my first post on B5LR, and I wouldn't have expected it to be in the Crusade-Forum

But this topic was too hard to resist, so here it goes:

Lennier brought up some pretty logical points about JMS' possible imagination. I know it is a far fetch, but consider this:
Crusade was clearly spawned off of B5 and made use of its background and history (and rightfully so!). Therefor, a possible cure might be already known from B5 history, namely the end of season 4.

*trys spoiler-box*

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
As we heard, Edgars created the plague to control and enslave telepaths with the help of alien researchers. Lateron, Bester speculates that the Shadows might have had their hands in this to play both sides against the middle.

Now, what if the telepath-plague and the Drahk-plague are just 2 faces of the univeral nano-plague of the Shadows? We know that the Drakh-plage is programmable, so it would've been almost no effort for the Shadows to program it to afflict only telepaths and kill them within a set time, if the antidot wasn't applied.

Based on this assumption, the antidot Edgars developed might be adjustable to the Drakh-plague. With the side-effect, that a regular injection of the antidot is needed to render it inactive, maybe even non-contagious.

And now remember who has both, telepath-plague and antidot: Bester and the Psi Corp. Wouldn't that be the perfect instrument for them to turn the tables on the mundanes and, after the real cure was discovered, the ideal trigger for the telepath war?
</font></td></tr></table>

OK, I already said it: far fetched, but not totally impossible.

Regards,

Telkon

PS: Any and all errors are due to the fact that english is not my nativ language OR my own stupidity - you choose.

------------------

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

whoa!!!

those are some really good points telkon, and welcome to b5lr.

------------------
I have no one to envy...
I envy you having me to envy...

"love to stay, can't, have to go, kiss kiss, love love, bye" G'Kar

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Telkon:
*Snip*

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
And now remember who has both, telepath-plague and antidot: Bester and the Psi Corp. Wouldn't that be the perfect instrument for them to turn the tables on the mundanes and, after the real cure was discovered, the ideal trigger for the telepath war?
</font></td></tr></table>

*Snip*

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Bester and the (Old) Psi-Corp are gone by the time the plague came around - the Telepath war preceeded Crusade (hence the Mr. Whatshisname episode dealing with the first officers involvement in the Telepath war and the final downfall of the Psi-Corp.)

Good point though - someone would have it.

Though I'm not 100% sure whether Garibaldi has caught Bester yet.

Hey!! Maybe that is how they find the cure. When Garibaldi catches Bester, he has the files regarding the Tepe Virus and that gets to the right people and they find a cure!?!?
</font></td></tr></table>

just my $.05 worth

------------------
### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world. ### - Caught from Kier Darby @ vBulletin infidel_dog@rangerone.b5lr.com

[This message has been edited by Shalinor (edited January 10, 2002).]

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>

The fate of Bester is in the Third Telepath book and is after the end of Crusade.

I do not trust the "cure" to the telepath virus. The Shadows want the telepaths eliminated, rather than suffering a minor inconvenience. It would either have a side effect that kills after, say 5 years, or the Shadows were planning to use their spider ships to destroy the factories or both.

Using the telepath "cure" to stop the virus in year 2 of Crusade only for the side effect to start killing people in year 5 is possible. Gideon could then discover the real cure.
</font></td></tr></table>




------------------
Andrew Swallow

 

[eirik]

I think our new friend's idea about:


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> the cure to the telepath plague being adapted to treat/cure the Drakh/Shadow plague </font></td></tr></table>


is terrific.

As for the timing of when

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Garibaldi captures Bester. That happens shortly before Sheridan dies, less than three years, maybe a matter of months. </font></td></tr></table>

On the point about


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> the modified telepath plague cure treating the Drakh plague such that it requires monthly doses and may ultimately cause death after five years because the Shadows wanted to kill telepaths, I think the monthly dose thing makes sense but I don't think the Shadows would have wanted to kill the telepaths when they could control them and compel them to incite chaos instead. Remember, they found Bunny and other telepaths useful. Further, I have to believe that the Shadows would derive a little bit of pleasure out of turning what are essentially Vorlon creations against the interests of the Vorlons.

BTW, I found it odd in the mage trilogy that only Kosh (the first) realized and appreciated the point that the mages were an excellent example supporting their ideology as compared to that of the Shadows. The mages fighting chaos in favor of control and order that is...</font></td></tr></table>



------------------
It never ends; it only changes!

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Okay, I need to get a better grip of this system

Back to the topic at hand. I like the idea thet the drakh plague is intended to catalog the whole ecosystem before destroying it. It matches something that Justin told Sheridan in "Zha'ha'dun", about how regrettable it was that some races became extincted during a shadow war (shadow/vorlon war?). Using the plague, tha shadows could store the information to duplicate the whole ecosystem, INCLUDING THE RACE about to be exterminated, en seed it in some chosen planet somewhere eles

That would mean that Dureena's race isn't as extincted as she tought, and could mean that the series was about the Excalibur searching for the worlds in which the shadows replicated their victims.
BTW, I have a theory about how the plague was defeated: In the last Crusade ep., Franklin and the Excalibur's doctor (can't remember her name

) speculate that the nanomahines composing the Plague were receiving (and possibly sending) information and instructions from a central computer. I imagine that if this computer is destroyed, the plague will stop. And where would I hide this most vital piece of equipment? Where else better than Earth, where nobody's looking? Plus, it means that no messages will be intercepted, risking discovery of the central brains of the plague.
Now remember, people, this is all speculation. Just a way to while away the time, with no special piece of evidence supporting it. Feel free to disagree all you want (and you guys and girs will), and offer alternative theories.

peace.

------------------
never surrender, never give up

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I notice that the first part of my message didn't quite go through, as I tought.

Let's try again. I'm a rookie on this page (as if you didn't notice0. In fact, I'm a newcomer to alll this newsgroup thing, having in the past avoided it like the plaggue. But this topic was waay too cool for me to pass up.
Besides that, I wanted to add some toughts about the topic, but tought that my choice to not use the spoilers box was important (the reason I didn't use it was that for all I know, all I said in the prior post was only speculation, without a shred of evidence to support it besides what was aired in previous eps.).
So, there. My first post, and I made a fool of myself. Well, I'm in good company. JMS once said that his goal when he directed SiL was not to make a fool of himself. He blew it in the first take

. Forgot to say "action", and everybody waited patiently for him to say it, and nothing. Until somebody told him to say the word, or the actors couldn't begin to act. Just a little story I read somewhere. Cheers

------------------
never surrender, never give up

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The only use the Shadows found for telepaths was to shield against other telepaths and messing around with mundain's minds.

Elimination of the telepaths would mean that the Shadow Ships would no longer need shielding. The Narm telepaths were eliminated. There are none human telepaths, after 5 years the anti-telepath virus would probably kill them too.

------------------
Andrew Swallow

 

[bakana]

The flaw in the Teep plague argument is that it is a DNA based plague, not a nano-virus.
It targets the specific DNA sequences that identify a telepath and attaches itself to that chromosome(s), eventually destroying it/them unless the inhibitor drug is administered on a regular basis.

The Drakh plague is a more systemic infection that moves to all the body's important organs, heart, lungs, brain, liver, kidneys, etc. and takes up residence.
The big tipoff that it is both controlled and Communicating with the controller is that it Avoids "non esential" tissue like veins and arteries.

During the first few days of the infection, the Drakh plague caused thousands of deaths worldwide, while it "learned" the human organism.
It eventually duplicated the symptoms of almost every disease known to humans.
Then, having learned a few thousand ways to Kill everyone, it settled down to learning Everything Else about humans.
Most of those early deaths were probably unintentional as the nanomachines tested the functions of one tissue group after another to learn which were critical to life and which the body could live without - at least for a while.
In addition to the Dead, there must have been thousands of people crippled in strange and unusual ways.



------------------
Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

To take it a bit further...

If it truly was something universal and flexible, why would it limit itself to Humans? After all, what are the Humans? Simply one species, one strand of DNA among many, one type of cells among many. It would not limit itself to Humans.

It would conduct similar experiments with every form of life it encounters. Earth was quarantined not only for people, but for all beings and things. Everything short of information.

This suggests that the Shadow plague took similar interest in all forms of life, possibly even non-living things, resources and materials.

Does it have a central computer?

Questionable. Some examples of Shadow technology show a great degree of centralization (the Eye). Others consist of countless independent nodes (the original Shadow planetkiller seen at Coriana).

There is, however, one fact which suggests a central computer. If the plague was to explore, to collect information, then it must store the results.

So where is the big datacrystal?

1. They are the datacrystal.

It might be a network. Every node collects a bit of data. There are trillions of nodes. When the Shadows bring the "big datacrystal", the network activates and starts relaying results. Each node passes back what it inherited and collected, helping others to do the same.

There would be no need for a central computer -- not until the time when the Shadows want to retreive or transmit the information. The Shadows might build it this way -- for such a system would be very difficult to hurt.

Perhaps it builds its own datacrystal?

Perhaps it automatically selects one or more places on the planet -- and independently builds its data storage facilities?

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 11, 2002).]

 

[Recoil]

I dont know if all this technical jargin is really necessary to cure the plague. Just rub some dirt on it and get back in the game!

------------------
'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> The flaw in the Teep plague argument is that it is a DNA based plague, not a nano-virus.

It targets the specific DNA sequences that identify a telepath and attaches itself to that chromosome(s), eventually destroying it/them unless the inhibitor drug is administered on a regular basis.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We do not know if the Teep plague is actually a virus. It may be a nanovirus that also examines the DNA sequence. It may just be set to ignore entities that do not have the appropriate sequence.


------------------
Andrew Swallow

[This message has been edited by AndrewSwallow (edited January 11, 2002).]

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

@bakana:

As I said, it is just a speculation, but still a valid one.

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
Edgars referred to the Teep-plague as a virus only. That does not mean he could have just not mentioned it being a NANO-virus.

On a similar note, the plague could still be derived from the postulated basic "Shadow Nanotech Plague (TM)", just with the programming to 1) only infect humans and attach itself to the telepathy gene to identify its prime target and 2) kill the target after a period of time without the "sleep"-code in form of the antidot.

In fact, it would seem to mirror the specific navigational skill of the Drakh-plague, just with a purpose. The same postulated plague without the programming, or poor programming (which was the reason mentioned why the plague kills earths population after 5 years instead of immideatly) could very well test dormant information of the immunological system, i.e. reinventing the technics of our known plagues.
</font></td></tr></table>

All of this could still be consistent with the facts. And I still like the idea mentioned earlier by someone, that the plagues original task might have been that of a "evolutionary engine" to present the ecosystem/race with an evolutionary pressure.

A central control unit would not be necessary to coordinate the experiment, just exchange of the gathered data on the "attacks"

------------------

 

[eirik]

In the episode that aired today for Crusade, we learned that the virus is not limited to humans. It infected the 'lost tribe' from Zander Prime.

As for the Drakh/Shadow plague 'learning', I think that quite probable. And therefore I don't think there is a central computer rather a distributed intelligence/memory, which as someone indicated above, can download the data that it gathered.

Do we really KNOW that every individual would be killed by the plague if no cure or treatment were employed? Afterall, we only know what the victim's have inferred from their observations of the plague in action. We have not heard from someone that knows how it works, such as a Shadow agent perhaps.

I ask this because I could see how the virus might kill off the weak or even modify select individuals to ultimately yield a stronger race of people. That sounds very Shadow-like. The chaos and struggle to survive accelerates the evolution of the species, albeit at an extremely high price of wiping out most of the species.

In today's Star Trek episode this evening, they came across a planet that had people living to over a thousand years of age. They learned that their longevity and lack of disease was due to a massive bacterial war years ago that killed most of the population but left behind the strongest individuals that actually grew stronger as a result. When we innoculate ourselves, don't we usually expose ourselves to a small dose of what it is that we're trying to be innoculated from? For example, fly shots sometimes give people the flu.

As far as I know, we only know of two uses of the Shadow plague: earth and that planet that placed its population in stasis after three years of trying to cure the plague.

Eirik

Eirik

------------------
It never ends; it only changes!

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

A method of only killing telepaths was used on the Narn Homeworld. It sounds like a virus.

------------------
Andrew Swallow

 

[eirik]

I vaguely recall G'Kar saying something about a scream was heard and most of the telepaths died. G'Quan and the other remaining mindwalkers then chased the Shadows off. If I'm remembering that correctly, then I don't think it was a virus as we understand it.

------------------
It never ends; it only changes!

 

[bakana]

The inference was that most of the Narn Telepaths were driven Mad by exposure to the CPUs in the Shadow Vessels. Or perhaps as a result of trying to probe a Shadow.

Only the strongest survived. And the ones smart enough to Not try to read the Shadows after the first round of deaths.

As far as the Teep plague not being exactly what it was described as, do you REALLY think someone as paranoid as Edgars would go anywhere Near it unless he were absolutely Certain what it was and that it was harmless to HIM?

If he didn't understand it, he'd never have trusted it.

It was just what it was advertised to be, not a Shadow plague varient.

That plague was not something the Shadows would have been tossing around the universe casually.
It was stated explicitely in the Crusade Dialogue that it Did attack every living thing on the planet.

The original use for the Virus might have been to "clean up" after a failed Ecosystem so that a New set of organisms could be introduced.

A race that measures its lifespan in Millions of years would have no trouble conducting experiments that lasted two or three of those Millions of years.

They might look at Planets the way fish fanciers look at Aquariums.
Every now and then, they get the urge to change out all the fish and try a differenet species.
In order to do that, they empty out the aquarium, sterilize it and introduce an ecosystem better suited to the new fish.

------------------
Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

[This message has been edited by bakana (edited January 11, 2002).]

 

[A_M_Swallow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> The inference was that most of the Narn Telepaths were driven Mad by exposure to the CPUs in the Shadow Vessels. Or perhaps as a result of trying to probe a Shadow.

Only the strongest survived. And the ones smart enough to Not try to read the Shadows after the first round of deaths.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The reason G'Kar wanted to buy telepath DNA in "The Gathering" was that *none* of the Narn telepaths survived. What ever was killing them continued to kill the mindwalkers after the Shadows had left.

The scream could just be the same scream that the Shadow ships give off. It does not appear to kill anything.

------------------
Andrew Swallow

[This message has been edited by A_M_Swallow (edited January 12, 2002).]

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> What ever was killing them continued to kill the mindwalkers after the Shadows had left.

The scream could just be the same scream that the Shadow ships give off. It does not appear to kill anything. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, What g'Kar said was that there weren't Enough surviving telepaths to keep the line going.
While there Were present day Narns with various portions of the telepath gene, none had the Complete sequence.
Or, if they Did, they weren't telling anyone for fear of being turned into a lab rat/breeding experiment.

The Narn teeps of 1000 years ago didn't realize the talent was going to be Valuable, so they mixed casually with the general population until there were no telepaths left.

As far as the Scream goes, we don't Know what exposure to it over a long period might do to a telepath.
We've only seem them react to it as it went past at high speed.
Or when they were actively combatting it.

Hearing that scream, up close and personal, for days at a time, would most likely cause severe Sleep Deprivation in the telepaths close to it.
Humans who suffer from severe sleep deprivation almost always end up psychotic.
The Narns might just react the same way.
Or worse.



------------------
Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>The Narn teeps of 1000 years ago didn't realize the talent was going to be Valuable, so they mixed casually with the general population until there were no telepaths left.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This can not be the explanation.

Had this been the case, pieces of telepath gene(s) would have come together again in a few generations, producing a large presence of low-level telepaths and a small presence of very capable telepaths. This seems to be the case with most races who do not force their telepaths to marry other telepaths, such as the Centauri and Minbari.

Only the Humans with their Psi-Corps seem to have chosen the other way: having many moderately high-level teeps, but less low-level and less extremely talented teeps. But essentially, this attempt to fight diversity will fail. The telepath gene will spread anyway, only more slowly.

------

Whatever killed the Narn telepaths destroyed most functioning copies of the telepath gene, or most individuals who exhibited telepathic ability, which is more-or-less the same. The only difference appears from the question of whether it is one gene or many.

If it is one gene, anyone having a functioning copy has some level of telepathy. An attack against telepathic ability would be an attack against the gene, and vice versa.

If it it many genes, two persons might have perfectly working parts of it, but not exhibit the ability because they lack other essential parts. As the missing parts would be different for different people, an attack against those who exhibit the ability would not destroy telepathy. It would re-appear very quickly.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 13, 2002).]