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Crusade vs Rangers

GKarsEye

Regular
OK, this might seem like a silly question, so forgive me, but:

When the Sci-fi channel decided to pick up the B5 franchise and make a new series, why didn't they do Crusade? They already had 13 episodes, a cast, etc.
The only thing I can think of is that they didn't want to touch something that was started by another network, so that no one would say, "You're just picking up TNT's pieces." It seems the sci-fi channel are on a mission to make themselves seem like more of a creatively legitimate channel (which I give them credit for and admire their success). Is this part of that?

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
There you go again with those "facts"
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What is the fate of Roswell? What is Roswell?
Outside of B5, Simpsons, Bill Maher, and Conan O'Brien, I'm too busy harrassing people on Babylon 5 message boards to watch TV.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
(My job in life, BTW, is to keep Joe busy)

Joe: One of the reasons I still harbor a lingering TNT hatred is not that they dropped Crusade. It is that they kept hanging on to the rights so that no one else could possibly buy it.

Isn’t that part of this horrible little picture, too?
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"Why not? Only 1 Human captain has ever survived battle with the Minbari fleet. He is behind me, you are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."
 
I don't watch much broadcast TV either, and don't really know much about Roswell myself, outside of the basic premise. It is a contemporary show about a bunch of high school kids in (you guessed it!) Roswell, New Mexico. According to the show a UFO really did crash there almost 50 years ago, and the aliens who emerged from the craft - stayed. Some of their descendants are still living there, looking human on the outside.

I don't know if the show's regulars are aliens trying to get on with their lives or humans trying to uncover an alien consipiracy. It sounds like 90210 meets The X-Files. It was cancelled from one network (either UPN or The WB, I forget) and picked up by another (either UPN or The WB - whichever one didn't cancel it in the first place.
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)

Just another example of the networks' new willingness to pick up one another's leftovers in the age of audience fragmentation.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
Roswell is about teen aliens living in the town of well, Roswell, and having to deal with and find out about their pasts. Don't want to get too much into it, it's complicated.

Roswell, after it barely made it to second season on the WB, was cancelled, despite its loyal fan following. Later, UPN was convinced to pick up Roswell for a third season, to air directly after the also newly acquired show from the WB, Buffy.

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Sheridan: Are you trying to cheer me up?
Ivanova: No sir, wouldn't dream of it.
Sheridan: Good, I hate being cheered up. It's depressing.
Ivanova: So in that case we're all going to die horrible, painful, lingering deaths.
Sheridan: Thank you, I feel so much better now.
 
For what it's worth, Law & Order is now showing in 3 Different places at the same time. The Originating network and two different cable channels. One of the cable channels only runs one episode a week (L&W:SVU) while the other does two episodes a Day of the original series.

What has happened is that the number of Cable/Satellite channels has outgrown Hollywood's ability to produce interesting original content. They are now competing for good shows to air. This is a radical departure from the past when production companies turned out twice as many shows as there were slots to fill. Not all Good shows, necessarily.
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Some real turkeys hit the airwaves.

This is GOOD for the Babylon 5 universe. A series that is consistently Better than 90% of the rest will Shine. JMS knows how to do this. He Will do this.

Of course, we'll also have competiton from a lot of Crap shows as lots of people try to jump on the SF Bandwagon. No silver lining is without a cloud.
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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>One of the reasons I still harbor a lingering TNT hatred is not that they dropped Crusade. It is that they kept hanging on to the rights so that no one else could possibly buy it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes and no.
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Immediately after the second production shutdown, when Sci-Fi first attempted to pick up the show, TNT was asking a high price. They wanted Warner Bros. to refund every cent that they had contributed to the production cost in licensing fees - even though they were killing the show after 13 episodes and were contractually obligated to pay Warner Bros. for 22. (TNT never did pay for the balance of the unproduced shows.)

That was a budgetary problem for Sci-Fi, but it wasn't the deal killer. They backed off and said, in effect, "Fine. You air the existing 13 first, it's the only way you'll make your money back. Then we'll talk to Warner Bros. when the rights revert back to them." Because as soon as TNT aired the show once as a "limited series" and took it off the air, the rights didrevert to Warner Bros.

The real problem was the B5 reruns. The Sci-Fi Channel was not willing to pickup an untested new show like Crusade without also being able to air the "parent show." No other network would have taken Crusade without B5 either. And TNT knew it. Unfortunately, TNT had exclusive rights to the B5 reruns until February 2001. The price they asked for those rights was outrageous, something no network programmer in his or her right mind would ever pay. And that's what really killed the deal.

(I used to know someone who worked for a company in Los Angeles that was involved in this deal - I don't want to say how, because I don't want to identify the company or the individual. Suffice it to say that this is someone I had corresponded with for a long time, and who I knew was in a position to know about stuff like this. Much similar information about other deals had come from this source in the past and had checked out. This person described TNT's proposal for the B5 reurns as "a ransom note.")

Sci-Fi had really already allocated its funds for new series for that production year - but they still tried to make the numbers work and came very close to doing it. Until they saw TNT's price for B5. TNT used the B5 reruns as a club with which to kill Crusade and make sure it stayed dead. That is the only reason they kept B5 on the air as long as they did.

B5's ratings had been slipping as they got into the third and fourth rerun cycles, which is way they started moving the show to other timeslots and replacing it with stuff that got better ratings. After the Crusade mess even hardcore fans stopped tuning in. In other circumstances, TNT would probably have simply dropped the show from their schedule.

But if they did that, they would lose their exclusive. The rights would revert back to Warner Bros. which would then be free to sell B5 - and Crusade - to anybody who wanted them. So TNT finally reduced the show to once a week on Saturday mornings, but they refused to cancel it.

That's why well-intentioned efforts like Jerry Doyle's to get some kind of new B5 project off the ground never got anywhere, and why JMS wasn't actively pursuing anything himself. He was biding his time. He knew that nobody was going to do anything new in the B5 universe without having rights to the original show. And that wasn't going to happen until TNT's exclusive ran out. So why bother doing anything in the meantime. He waited.

Warner Bros. didn't. They calculated - correctly - that at a certain point it would no longer be worth TNT's while to hang on to the show. In February of 2000 they started top-secret negotiations with The Sci-Fi Channel about B5. Even JMS didn't know about them at the first. When they had reached an agreement, they went to TNT.

(They also told JMS what was up. By an odd coincidence my L.A. friend got wind of this at the same time. He contacted me to find out if I'd heard anything - which was pretty funny since I live in Florida and was running a computer network for a mortgage company at the time - in other words, I was about as far as you can get from Hollywood and still be in the U.S. I heard from one or two other people trying to verify the rumor that talks were underway, and for once we got everybody to agree to keep quiet about this for fear of screwing up the deal.)

At that point TNT had less than a year to run on their B5 contract. WB and Sci-Fi had agreed on terms for the reruns. TNT could have palyed hardball and kept the show until 2001. The problem was that Sci-Fi could afford to wait them out. They wanted to launch B5 in the fall of 2000. But they had no problem waiting until March 2001 if TNT's asking price was too high. TNT could either take a little for the show now, or absolutely nothing for it when Sci-Fi picked it up by default when the exclusive expired. TNT took the money.

In March 2000 Warner Bros. and the Sci-Fi Channel formally announced that SFC would be the new home of Babylon 5 come September. Bonnie Hammer finally had the show that she had been trying to acquire since 1998.

As a last spoil-sport gesture, TNT then worked out that they could run the entire series one more time if they showed it six days a week and doubled up on a couple of the Saturdays. That's exactly what they did, airing the show at 6 AM M-Sat and promoting it enough to ensure that lots of folks at least taped the show every day, which they figured would cut into Sci-Fi's ratings. (It seems probable that Sci-Fi decided - at the last minute - to ask Warner Bros. for the widescreen version of B5 in order to counter this move.)

TNT also made sure they ran all the TV movies again.
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TNT aired "Objects at Rest" and "Sleeping in Light" on a Saturday in September. The following Monday B5 made its debut on The Sci-Fi Channel.

So now you know the real depths of TNT's perfidy.
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Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>For what it's worth, Law & Order is now showing in 3 Different places at the same time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

More than that, actually.
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Both L&O and SVU air on NBC. New episodes of SVU are aired the following week on USA Network. Recent L&O reruns are showing on TNT, while the older episodes are on A&E. (Three times a day, afternoon, 7 PM and 11 PM.)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>What has happened is that the number of Cable/Satellite channels has outgrown Hollywood's ability to produce interesting original content. They are now competing for good shows to air.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The major factor here is production costs. As these continue to rise the studios either have to charge the networks more (which the networks aren't willing to pay) or they have to lose more per episode while the show is in production. These dual-run deals spread the production cost around. There is a question whether they're really benefitting everyone as much as folks have assumed. (There was an article on this in Daily Variety last week, but I'm not sure if I can link to it. I'll give it a shot later.)

With more outlets there is actually more demand for original content, the problem is the non-pay cable networks like F/X, USA, TNT and TNN can't afford to pay the kind of prices the broadcast networks do because their ratings (and ad rates) are lower. Paying a smaller license fee to get a "like new" network series episode makes sense for them. Otherwise they'd mostly be running network reruns or cheap "reality programming." As it is people who are watching something else when L&O:SVU airs on NBC one week can watch exactly the same episode on Sunday night. Don't even need a VCR or a TiVO.
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Regards,

Joe


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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>The only thing I can think of is that they didn't want to touch something that was started by another network, so that no one would say, "You're just picking up TNT's pieces."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I honestly don't think so. They weren't shy about picking up other cancelled shows from other networks (Sliders, The Outer Limits) and they tried to acquire Crusade immediately after the second production shut-down. (Prior to that they had been outbid by TNT for the fifth season of B5.)

I think the answer lies more in the sequence of events.

At the time they were negotiating for something new from JMS (and Bonnie Hammer said during the talks that "everything is on the table") Sci-Fi hadn't even picked up the rights to show Crusade.

By the time they acquired the rerun rights to B5 the show didn't have anything like the exposure it had in 1998 and 1999. They weren't sure how it would perform in the ratings in its fifth or sixth run.

So they took a very deliberate, step-by-step approach to the whole thing. First they acquired the reruns for B5. They didn't spend the extra money on Crusade because, in Bonnie Hammer's words, they wanted to see how the original show did "on our air."

They were so thrilled with the ratings near the end of the first run that they asked JMS for something new. At this point they still hadn't picked up Crusade, much less seen how it performed "on [their] air." Crusade was very deliberately made different in look, tone and feel from B5. Sci-Fi wanted something like B5, because that's the show that was proving such a success for them.

They also wanted to get started quickly, because TV movies take time to write, shoot and get through post-production. It would be months before they could work out a deal for the Crusade reruns with Warner Bros., get the show on the air and analyze the ratings. And they weren't going to invest a couple of million dollars in a new Crusade TV movie without having some idea how their audience would react to the show.

So they made the deal for the Rangers movie instead. That was the deal that made sense at the time, and the project they most liked among the several possible stories that JMS pitched to them. Then they went back a made a deal for the Crusade reruns. Again, the ratings were pretty good (sometimes better than they got for first-run episodes of their new prime time shows.) They'll probably run the series again at some point.

Right now everybody is concetrating on Rangers. If it goes to series, and does well, that will be the time to start thinking about Crusade. As JMS has said, TV is a cautious business. "You don't look at the ratings one day and go out and make the deal RIGHT NOW! Things take the time they take."

SFC sees Rangers as a "B5 project." Their decision to do it was based on B5's ratings. Crusade is its own show. Its fate will depend on two things - its own ratings, and whether or not Rangers does well enough that SFC thinks there is room for both shows on its schedule. SFC has half that equation now. The rest will have to wait on events.

But I don't think avoiding "damaged goods" is a factor. That sort of thinking used to go on in the TV biz, but with cable and satellite making specialized niche channels and smaller networks with limited target audiences profitable, something that doesn't work on a "mainstream" network may be ideal on a niche network. This sort of thing even happens among the broadcast networks now, witness the fate of Roswell.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
Regarding Roswell... watch it everyone! The tagline premise doesn't do it any justice. It's a complicated and very well written show.

If you can't remember what network got what... just remember what the networks have started calling each other. UPN = used parts network. WB = without Buffy.

I think David Boreanaz getting up at a WB press conference and saying "Hey, this isn't UPN" didn't help matters either. *LOL*



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Dreg: "Most beauteous and supremely magnificent one, this dark spell I hold in my worthless and scabby hand is our gift to you, most tingly and wonderful Glorificus..."
Glory: "Please, call me Glory. And get up, looking at you is hurting my neck."
Dreg: "Forgive me, shiny special one. I beg of you to rip out my inadequate tongue."
Glory: "Gimme."
 
I started watching Roswell during it's second season and hav found it to be an incredible show. It has a nice blend of dealing with the whole sci-fi thing, while the characters are real people trying to figure out what their purpose is, who they are, what they are supposed to do, etc.

It is definitely on of my favorites.

-Natron

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Speaking of Law and Order, there is a new version coming out this fall, Special Crimes Unit, or something, anyway because we see it both on US networks and Canadian networks, and in syndication it is actually on 27 times a week in one version or another, in my area of tv land.
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