Crusade: Other Voices - Vol. 1

[Jan]

Just came out today. Includes two of Fiona Avery's scripts (two drafts each), concept art, script analyses and...drum roll, please...a NEVER before seen script by Peter Woodward (AKA Galen the techno-mage)!!

http://www.cafepress.com/b5books

$10 off for the first week only.

Jan

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Just came out today. Includes two of Fiona Avery's scripts (two drafts each), concept art, script analyses and...drum roll, please...a NEVER before seen script by Peter Woodward (AKA Galen the techno-mage)!!

http://www.cafepress.com/b5books

$10 off for the first week only.

Jan

Ok, impressive as that sounds, I've been burned by Cafe Press before. Is this *really* a script by Woodward, or a treatment, or what? Is it *really* a script that was being seriously considered by the show while it was in production, or just a random bit of woolgathering? How is it possible that I've never heard of the existence of this script before, even in other books by Cafe Press?

Also, "Volume 1" implies a "Volume 2." Are we looking at more scripts, or treatments or just random detritus?

 

[Jan]

Ok, impressive as that sounds, I've been burned by Cafe Press before. Is this *really* a script by Woodward, or a treatment, or what? Is it *really* a script that was being seriously considered by the show while it was in production, or just a random bit of woolgathering? How is it possible that I've never heard of the existence of this script before, even in other books by Cafe Press?

Also, "Volume 1" implies a "Volume 2." Are we looking at more scripts, or treatments or just random detritus?

Don't know if you mean you've been burned by Cafe Press or if you were somehow dissatisfied with a book put out by the B5 scripts team. If the latter, you should email help@babylon5scripts.com to let them know. Their customer service is legendary. Note that while CP is the fulfillment company, the publisher is Publishing 180. There's also an unconditional 30-day refund guarantee.

It's a script. Full length (43 pages), and I've seen a document that showed the original placement before JMS decided that it would work better, for both story and production requirements, in the second season.

Given that I'd never heard of it either until it was found in JMS's storage facility, my speculation is that because it was entirely a 'spec' script rather than an assigned story, it never appeared in any of the lists of possible stories that JMS had planned or given assignments for.

Yes, there is a volume 2 planned. I don't have information as to when and I'm not able to give any information as to the contents.

Jan
B5 Books Team

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Don't know if you mean you've been burned by Cafe Press or if you were somehow dissatisfied with a book put out by the B5 scripts team. If the latter, you should email help@babylon5scripts.com to let them know. Their customer service is legendary. Note that while CP is the fulfillment company, the publisher is Publishing 180. There's also an unconditional 30-day refund guarantee.

It's a script. Full length (43 pages), and I've seen a document that showed the original placement before JMS decided that it would work better, for both story and production requirements, in the second season.

Given that I'd never heard of it either until it was found in JMS's storage facility, my speculation is that because it was entirely a 'spec' script rather than an assigned story, it never appeared in any of the lists of possible stories that JMS had planned or given assignments for.

Yes, there is a volume 2 planned. I don't have information as to when and I'm not able to give any information as to the contents.

Jan
B5 Books Team

I guess I was burned by Publishing 180, not Cafe Press. My criticism of them is hereby rescinded. It was more than a year ago, though, so no point in complaining. Thanks for clearing that stuff up.

 

[Jan]

I guess I was burned by Publishing 180, not Cafe Press. My criticism of them is hereby rescinded. It was more than a year ago, though, so no point in complaining. Thanks for clearing that stuff up.

Whatever or whenever it was, I really urge you to let them know. Really. If they don't know about it, they can't make it right and I *know* that the mandate is now and always has been to do whatever they can to make the customer happy.

Jan

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Whatever or whenever it was, I really urge you to let them know. Really. If they don't know about it, they can't make it right and I *know* that the mandate is now and always has been to do whatever they can to make the customer happy.

Jan

Apparently my feelings have soured over the years. I just re-read my review of the book here,

http://www.republibot.com/content/book-review-“crusade-behind-scenes”-joe-nazzaro-2010

and while I'm clearly disappointed in the book, advertising, experience, cost, and what-all, I clearly don't feel "Burned" at the time. Definitely I felt mislead, but I took more responsibility for that at the time (Based on the review) than I did this week. Curious. Basically, I think I'm a soreheaded old crank who eventually takes minor speedbumps and turns them into massive travails.

Ignore me.

 

[KoshN]

Whatever or whenever it was, I really urge you to let them know. Really. If they don't know about it, they can't make it right and I *know* that the mandate is now and always has been to do whatever they can to make the customer happy.

Jan

Apparently my feelings have soured over the years. I just re-read my review of the book here,

http://www.republibot.com/content/book-review-“crusade-behind-scenes”-joe-nazzaro-2010

I disagree with "Firefly was a much better show, though." from your review. "Crusade" was/is definitely more my kind of show.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I disagree with "Firefly was a much better show, though." from your review. "Crusade" was/is definitely more my kind of show.

A matter of taste, I guess.

My problem with Crusade at the time was that it felt a bit derivative of Trek. My immediate impression was that it was JMS trying to do Trek better than Trek did, which, of course, he did. I was a little let down by it because it wasn't the watershed that B5 was. I have faith that it would have become that, but it started out feeling too familiar.

Firefly felt new and exciting, very personable cast, neat direction, neat look, lots of new spins on old tropes. Just making them civilians was a huge shift. It grabbed me the instant I saw it.

 

[KoshN]

I disagree with "Firefly was a much better show, though." from your review. "Crusade" was/is definitely more my kind of show.

A matter of taste, I guess.

My problem with Crusade at the time was that it felt a bit derivative of Trek. My immediate impression was that it was JMS trying to do Trek better than Trek did, which, of course, he did. I was a little let down by it because it wasn't the watershed that B5 was. I have faith that it would have become that, but it started out feeling too familiar.

??? Because it was a road show, one where the ship went from place to place every week? That's just a superficial similarity to all Trek except DS9. I saw Crusade through my thoroughly-accustomed-to-B5 eyes, and so Crusade didn't remind me of Trek. See, I've thoroughly divorced myself from Trek and don't carry that baggage with me. When I watch B5 and Crusade, Trek, anythingTrek, is absolutely the farthest thing from my thoughts. When I watch B5 and Crusade I'm IN the B5 universe, and Trek does not exist.

Firefly felt new and exciting, very personable cast, neat direction, neat look, lots of new spins on old tropes. Just making them civilians was a huge shift. It grabbed me the instant I saw it.

I almost dropped it the instant I saw it ("The Train Job"). Firefly initially felt like a morph of a traditional western and "Wild Wild West," scooped up off the planet and put in space, complete with twangy music, being written by people who had little grasp of science, and a phobia of including aliens (the "only humans" edict), and that was a turnoff. What made it watchable for me was the likeable cast, the comedy and the banter.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

??? Because it was a road show, one where the ship went from place to place every week? That's just a superficial similarity to all Trek except DS9. I saw Crusade through my thoroughly-accustomed-to-B5 eyes, and so Crusade didn't remind me of Trek. See, I've thoroughly divorced myself from Trek and don't carry that baggage with me. When I watch B5 and Crusade, Trek, anythingTrek, is absolutely the farthest thing from my thoughts. When I watch B5 and Crusade I'm IN the B5 universe, and Trek does not exist.

Oh, believe you me, Brother, I'm *not* a Trekie. I'm fully aware of the exigencies of picaresque storytelling, and its long history prior to that stupid franchise. I've got no love for Trek. No real hate, either, I just think it's boring and kind of stupid. (Well, TNG and on was stupid). That said, shows can and do deliberately rip off previous shows formats: Man From Atlantis, year 2 of Space: 1999, both deliberately ripped off TOS. SeaQuest DSV deliberately ripped off TNG.

I do not mean to imply that Crusade *WAS* a ripoff of Trek, simply that it wasn't the watershed that B5 was, and that it felt rather derivative. Ship-based planet-of-the-week show, most of the crew were ciphers, bland dentist office sets, ridiculous uniforms, it felt like they were trying to un-do a lot of what B5 had done. I have no doubt that it would have gotten better, but: while it was on, it just never grabbed me.

I almost dropped it the instant I saw it ("The Train Job"). Firefly initially felt like a morph of a traditional western and "Wild Wild West," scooped up off the planet and put in space, complete with twangy music, being written by people who had little grasp of science, and a phobia of including aliens (the "only humans" edict), and that was a turnoff. What made it watchable for me was the likeable cast, the comedy and the banter.

[/QUOTE]

Well, most of the country felt like you, so who am I to say you're wrong? A lot of people don't want peanut butter in their chocolate, and a lot of people don't want cowboys in their SF. As for me: I liked it.

As to the "Only Humans" thing, why do you NEED to have aliens in an SF show? I'm not saying you shouldn't ever do it, but at the time the show came out, aliens had become an accepted cliche of TVSF, and most of 'em weren't very good ("We are the Poets of Planet Poetlon P, all our species are poets, as denoted by this prosthetic forehead" or "We are a race of warriors, entirely, and hence none of us are farmers, yet somehow we continue not to starve.") As JMS once said, (Paraphrasing) 'Trek spends so much time trying to find the humanity of the aliens that they never bother to develop the humanity of the humans.'

Leaving aliens out of Firefly and the new BSG and Lost was a good thing, but it has become a bit of a contracliche in the years since.

 

[C.L.U.]

IIRC there were some rumors about the existence of alien life in Firefly, which could have been foreshadowing their arrival later in the show. Anyway, I didn't mind that there were only humans in the galaxy. I liked the concept and would have liked to see full five seasons of the show.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

IIRC there were some rumors about the existence of alien life in Firefly, which could have been foreshadowing their arrival later in the show. Anyway, I didn't mind that there were only humans in the galaxy. I liked the concept and would have liked to see full five seasons of the show.

Yeah, me too! I feel cheated.

There were rumors of alien life, alien conspiracies, alien kidnappings, etc, just like there are in our world, but just like in our world they're paranoid delusions. When we actually *see* an alleged Alien corpse on display, Simon immediately identifies it as a fetal pig.

Basically, the impression I got was that idiocy was a universal constant: people in the 'Verse believed in spooky aliens, ghosts, magic powers, weren't maybe the most educated of folks, etc.

 

[AnlaShokGrey]

I do not mean to imply that Crusade *WAS* a ripoff of Trek, simply that it wasn't the watershed that B5 was, and that it felt rather derivative. Ship-based planet-of-the-week show, most of the crew were ciphers, bland dentist office sets, ridiculous uniforms, it felt like they were trying to un-do a lot of what B5 had done. I have no doubt that it would have gotten better, but: while it was on, it just never grabbed me.

Republibot, I didn't have quite as negative a reaction to Crusade as you did, but I agree that it wasn't the show that B5 was. And it's not because we only got (barely) one season; I'm one of those strange types who actually liked B5 in its first season. Much as I love Gary Cole (and now I'll be hearing "Office Space" lines in my head all day!), the show just didn't grab me like B5 did.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Republibot, I didn't have quite as negative a reaction to Crusade as you did, but I agree that it wasn't the show that B5 was. And it's not because we only got (barely) one season; I'm one of those strange types who actually liked B5 in its first season. Much as I love Gary Cole (and now I'll be hearing "Office Space" lines in my head all day!), the show just didn't grab me like B5 did.

Hey, nice to meet ya'.

Have I made it seem like I had a negative reaction to it? 'Cuz that's not what I was going for. My impression of the show is pretty much like you just stated: It's not as good. That doesn't mean it's bad, or that I danced around all giddy-like when it got canned. I was actually upset that I'd never get to find out where it was going. It's just - as you said - not the show B5 was. And it was kinda' derivative, in that there were a kerjillion ship-based shows, but B5 was really the first Station-based show.

[time passes. rereading comments]

Yeah, it does look kinda' negative, what I wrote. Perhaps it's just sort of being put on the spot with the whole Firefly/Crusade thing.

I completely adored the 1st season of B5 when it aired. I still don't hate it, I still think it's better than season 5, but it doesn't hold up for me like the others. I think that might just be that since I did adore the eps when they were new, I've seen 'em all waaaaaaaay too many times. It's like Star Trek:TOS - I don't hate the show, I just can't watch it anymore, I've seen it too much. <G>

 

[KoshN]

I liked B5 from the very first episode I saw, S3E22 "Shadow Dancing." When I first saw Crusade (on TNT), it was after I'd seen all of B5 and the movies through "A Call to Arms," and I didn't like Crusade as much as B5. HOWEVER, upon subsequent viewings, I liked Crusade more and more. In my book, Crusade is not as good as B5 (my all-time favorite TV show), but it's close and the familial resemblance is definitely there.

If I could have one TV show to have restarted, Crusade would be it. If I could have two, I'd add Brimstone.

 

[AnlaShokGrey]

Hey, nice to meet ya'.

I completely agree with most of what you say. I just had to backquote this to say: sob! Am I really that unknown in these parts now? Sigh, guess I've been away too long... Well, with the moderated newsgroup currently non-functioning, this place, jmsnews.com, and the Facebook pages have been GODSENDS. I really need my B5 fan-friends fix from time to time!

Amy (p.s. - come see my thread in the "General off-topic discussion" area, called "B5 fan + B5 script writer = WIN!," to help me win a speaking role in the 10th anniversary audio book of Neil Gaiman's "American Gods"!)

 

[Tor]

If one is to compare Crusade to B5, it is really unfare to compare 5 years of B5 to 13 episodes of Crusade.

What if B5 had been cancelled after 13 episodes? None of the things I now love about B5 was not present then. The bad guy turning slowly into a hero during 100+ episodes. Seing things hinted at in erly episodes play out much much later. The shadow war, Sheridan, the forming of ISA. Etc.

In my opinion Crusade was excellent, but it suffered from being restarted after the 5 first episodes were filmed, and the change of uniforms. When it was restarted JMS was told that the first 5 episodes recorded would be scrapped. He had to compensate for that. When those episodes was shown anyway it ended with a lot of things being unlogical. People meeting for the first time twice. Things being used before it was invented, and so on. Things could have been fixed if all 13 episodes had been reedited, with some scenes moved from one episode to another.

Then the series was shown on tv out of order. The dvd box has the episodes out of order. The JMS-order in not any better. The best order is this:

01 War Zone - january, teep clue 1
02 The Long Road - feb or mars
06 Ruling from the Tomb - Lochley 1
08 Appearances and Other Deceits - gets grey uniforms
09 Racing the Night - Grey uniforms 1 (of 5), apocalypse box 1
11 The Needs of Earth - Cerberus 1
10 The Memory of War - virus 1, box 2
12 Visitors from down the Street - (ignore date), teep clue 2
13 Each Night I Dream of Home - Lochley 2, virus 2
Grey uniforms destroyed in a laundry room "accident" in the unfilmed script "To The End of the Earth".
03 The Well of Forever - teep clue 3, Isabelle 1
05 Patterns of the Soul - virus 3
04 Path of Sorrows - Isabelle 2, box 3 (how Gideon got it)
07 Rules of the Game - late (much is revelead), Lochley 3, Max watch last

This order makes most things play out in a logical manner, and things hinted at happens in a later episodes than the hint appear in, and the suspence is better if the big "revelation" episodes comes at the end.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

If one is to compare Crusade to B5, it is really unfare to compare 5 years of B5 to 13 episodes of Crusade.

What if B5 had been cancelled after 13 episodes? None of the things I now love about B5 was not present then. The bad guy turning slowly into a hero during 100+ episodes. Seing things hinted at in erly episodes play out much much later. The shadow war, Sheridan, the forming of ISA. Etc.

Is it fair to compare the first 13 of Crusade to the 1st 13 of B5?

In my opinion Crusade was excellent, but it suffered from being restarted after the 5 first episodes were filmed, and the change of uniforms. When it was restarted JMS was told that the first 5 episodes recorded would be scrapped. He had to compensate for that. When those episodes was shown anyway it ended with a lot of things being unlogical. People meeting for the first time twice. Things being used before it was invented, and so on. Things could have been fixed if all 13 episodes had been reedited, with some scenes moved from one episode to another.

Then the series was shown on tv out of order. The dvd box has the episodes out of order. The JMS-order in not any better. The best order is this:

01 War Zone - january, teep clue 1
02 The Long Road - feb or mars
06 Ruling from the Tomb - Lochley 1
08 Appearances and Other Deceits - gets grey uniforms
09 Racing the Night - Grey uniforms 1 (of 5), apocalypse box 1
11 The Needs of Earth - Cerberus 1
10 The Memory of War - virus 1, box 2
12 Visitors from down the Street - (ignore date), teep clue 2
13 Each Night I Dream of Home - Lochley 2, virus 2
Grey uniforms destroyed in a laundry room "accident" in the unfilmed script "To The End of the Earth".
03 The Well of Forever - teep clue 3, Isabelle 1
05 Patterns of the Soul - virus 3
04 Path of Sorrows - Isabelle 2, box 3 (how Gideon got it)
07 Rules of the Game - late (much is revelead), Lochley 3, Max watch last

This order makes most things play out in a logical manner, and things hinted at happens in a later episodes than the hint appear in, and the suspence is better if the big "revelation" episodes comes at the end.

I worked out my own order a while back, I'll have to look it up again. Similar to yours, and I agree both the broadcast and "Official" orders don't work.

 

[rjb]

I spent ages some time ago deciding on `my` order for Crusade as well. I find that my first 9 eps are the same as Tor's but in a slightly different order and my final 4 are (therefore) also the same, but also in a slightly different order. And I also place War Zone first, Rules of the Game last, the 3 Lochley meetings in `chronological` (as I see it) order and the 4 eps Appearances and Other Deceits, Racing the Night, The Needs of Earth and The Memory of War consecutively.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I spent ages some time ago deciding on `my` order for Crusade as well. I find that my first 9 eps are the same as Tor's but in a slightly different order and my final 4 are (therefore) also the same, but also in a slightly different order. And I also place War Zone first, Rules of the Game last, the 3 Lochley meetings in `chronological` (as I see it) order and the 4 eps Appearances and Other Deceits, Racing the Night, The Needs of Earth and The Memory of War consecutively.

Looked it up. My order is

0- "A Call To Arms" (The movie)
1- War Zone (Which barely fits continuity at all)
2- Appearances and other deceits (Where they get the bellboy uniforms)
3-Racing the night (Intended to be the 1st episode)
4-The Memory of War
5-The Needs of Earth
6-Visitors from Down the Street (The X-files parody)
7-Each Night I dream of home (The Lochley/Steven Franklin episode)
8-The Long Road (Galen vs. The Equalizer)
9-Patterns of the Soul
10-The Path of Sorrow (The Galen/Gideon/Matheson flashback episode)
11-Ruling from the Tomb (Lochley on mars/religious death cult episode)
12- The Well of Forever
13- The Rules of the Game (3rd Lochley episode, where the Excalibur docks at B5)

"Each Night" just feels like the first Lochley ep to me, as she's out of her familiar territory, "Tomb" has Lochley and Gideon on more-or-less equal footing in unfamiliar surroundings, and "Game" reverses the first Lochley ep, with Gideon in unfamiiar surroundings, and Lochley on her home turf. There's a bit of a progression there.

It seems likely that Lochley and Gideon would have met - albeit briefly and probably formally - when he was on the station prior to the start of War Games. High profile meeting and all, and she was a hands-on CO