Darth Vader
Regular
The world may never know.
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"I am the state"
Napoleon
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"I am the state"
Napoleon
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Crusade and Rangers, Which Came First?
- Thread starter Darth Vader
- Start date
It's been rumored that TNT wanted all references to B5 removed from Crusade. Remember how the Rangers were in most of the original eps of Crusade? (the grey uniform episodes)
I have an article with an interview with JMS about Crusade, where he mentioned that there was going to be a Warrior Caste Minbari and a Zathras on the crew. They never made it on, so maybe TNT had most of the Rangers references removed as well.
Just some idle speculation on my part...
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Marcus, "Well They said I was carrying around a lot of repressed anger.
Lennier, "and?"
Marcus, "I'm not repressed anymore."
I have an article with an interview with JMS about Crusade, where he mentioned that there was going to be a Warrior Caste Minbari and a Zathras on the crew. They never made it on, so maybe TNT had most of the Rangers references removed as well.
Just some idle speculation on my part...
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Marcus, "Well They said I was carrying around a lot of repressed anger.
Lennier, "and?"
Marcus, "I'm not repressed anymore."
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by curt:
Near the end of the B5 run, JMS was talking about a new series. One he thought could possibly run even somewhat parallel to B5. One about the Rangers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>His actual words were: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I've already said...the sequel would be built to some degree around the rangers. Let it go at that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Something that Crusade arguably was (even if TNT decided they didn't wan't any Rangers to be shown.
Near the end of the B5 run, JMS was talking about a new series. One he thought could possibly run even somewhat parallel to B5. One about the Rangers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>His actual words were: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I've already said...the sequel would be built to some degree around the rangers. Let it go at that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Something that Crusade arguably was (even if TNT decided they didn't wan't any Rangers to be shown.
Chris Springob
Regular
drakh--A quick look at The Lurker's Guide page on Crusade suggests that it was more than just that one statement:
quote:
Q: Does the series touch on the Rangers' work on Earth as shown in "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars?"
JMS: No, that part isn't the crux of the Rangers series, because that takes place 'way down the road, but monks have always been around on the show, starting with Brother Theo, so I imagine we'll see them in future.
/quote
JMS himself referred to Crusade as "the Ranger series".
quote:
Q: What years does the story span?
JMS: 2265-2270
/quote
Sound familiar?
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quote:
Q: Does the series touch on the Rangers' work on Earth as shown in "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars?"
JMS: No, that part isn't the crux of the Rangers series, because that takes place 'way down the road, but monks have always been around on the show, starting with Brother Theo, so I imagine we'll see them in future.
/quote
JMS himself referred to Crusade as "the Ranger series".
quote:
Q: What years does the story span?
JMS: 2265-2270
/quote
Sound familiar?
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Ok ok
I had actually just read that bit, and with it fresh in my mind I was really just trying to present an oposite viewpoint.
One thing I just remebered that supports the "original spin-off" theory, is Larry DiTillio's comments in an interview with the B5 Magazine... He said that jms had shown him the plans for the spin-off when it was still being developed, and they were quite different than what we got with Crusade.
Dvelving even deeper into the dark pits of my memory, there's also vague statement by jms talking about chosing between two concepts for a spin-off. I have however been unable to find this one anywere, so I may just be imaginig it.
One thing I just remebered that supports the "original spin-off" theory, is Larry DiTillio's comments in an interview with the B5 Magazine... He said that jms had shown him the plans for the spin-off when it was still being developed, and they were quite different than what we got with Crusade.
Dvelving even deeper into the dark pits of my memory, there's also vague statement by jms talking about chosing between two concepts for a spin-off. I have however been unable to find this one anywere, so I may just be imaginig it.
From some of the articles I read when cast members were interviewed, I'm sure they thought they would be included in the new series. In fact a couple of them were approached about tentative contracts, then in the last couple of months of the show everything changed. Bruce B said he was really surprised when none of the B5 cast was in the new show. I think that was when TNT laid down the law and said it had to be a completely new show because it wouldn't attract newcomers who hadn't seen Babylon5.
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JMs originally said (way back in the early part of B5) that after B5 he was planning to take a bit of time off from TV and write a novel that he's had hanging around in the back of his head for several years.
Then, he found out it wasn't so easy to jump off a moving freight train.
He'd also said all along that, although he was definitly going to make Sure there was no "B5: The next Gen", there Were several side stories that could be done in the same Universe but not part of the Station's Story.
His preference for the first of these "side stories" was the Rangers. But it wasn't the Only story. TNT may have asked for more than one series treatment and picked Crusade over Rangers.
I suspect the Drakh Plague awakened visions of ER in their tiny little brains. Wasn't that about the same time ER became a hit?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
OOOH. Doctors. Nurses. Melodrama. Ripping people's shirts off to restart their hearts every week. Let's make it Women having all the heart attacks.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Doesn't that sound a bit like a TNT executive thinking out loud?
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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
Then, he found out it wasn't so easy to jump off a moving freight train.
He'd also said all along that, although he was definitly going to make Sure there was no "B5: The next Gen", there Were several side stories that could be done in the same Universe but not part of the Station's Story.
His preference for the first of these "side stories" was the Rangers. But it wasn't the Only story. TNT may have asked for more than one series treatment and picked Crusade over Rangers.
I suspect the Drakh Plague awakened visions of ER in their tiny little brains. Wasn't that about the same time ER became a hit?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
OOOH. Doctors. Nurses. Melodrama. Ripping people's shirts off to restart their hearts every week. Let's make it Women having all the heart attacks.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Doesn't that sound a bit like a TNT executive thinking out loud?
------------------
Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
Near the end of the B5 run, JMS was talking about a new series. One he thought could possibly run even somewhat parallel to B5. One about the Rangers.
Then with the move to TNT, we got Crusade. I think most people assumed that Crusade was the series to which he refered. IIRC some fans even called JMS on the fact that it wasn't a "Rangers" series. He of course had some vorlonic response.
But was B5LR what he was originally considering as his followup series to B5?
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Then with the move to TNT, we got Crusade. I think most people assumed that Crusade was the series to which he refered. IIRC some fans even called JMS on the fact that it wasn't a "Rangers" series. He of course had some vorlonic response.
But was B5LR what he was originally considering as his followup series to B5?
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D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakana:
.
Doesn't that sound a bit like a TNT executive thinking out loud?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They think?
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"So where does the power come from to see the race to its end? It comes from within."
.
Doesn't that sound a bit like a TNT executive thinking out loud?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They think?
------------------
"So where does the power come from to see the race to its end? It comes from within."
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakana:
He'd also said all along that, although he was definitly going to make Sure there was no "B5: The next Gen", there were several side stories that could be done in the same Universe but not part of the Station's Story.
His preference for the first of these "side stories" was the Rangers. But it wasn't the Only story. TNT may have asked for more than one series treatment and picked Crusade over Rangers.
I suspect the Drakh Plague awakened visions of ER in their tiny little brains. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats what I was thinking bakana. I think that TNT execs probably looked at some outline for a rangers show and said:
A. It doesn't have enough drama--there is no great threat, and
2. That it was too connected to B5. If the rangers are going out helping worlds impacted by the shadow/vorlon war, then TNT execs assumed that viewers had to know the whole story behind the shadow/vorlon war.
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He'd also said all along that, although he was definitly going to make Sure there was no "B5: The next Gen", there were several side stories that could be done in the same Universe but not part of the Station's Story.
His preference for the first of these "side stories" was the Rangers. But it wasn't the Only story. TNT may have asked for more than one series treatment and picked Crusade over Rangers.
I suspect the Drakh Plague awakened visions of ER in their tiny little brains. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats what I was thinking bakana. I think that TNT execs probably looked at some outline for a rangers show and said:
A. It doesn't have enough drama--there is no great threat, and
2. That it was too connected to B5. If the rangers are going out helping worlds impacted by the shadow/vorlon war, then TNT execs assumed that viewers had to know the whole story behind the shadow/vorlon war.
------------------
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Doesn't that sound a bit like a TNT executive thinking out loud?
They think?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
TNT Executives and their Thinking abilities are a great example of why you should never hire Unskilled Labor.
------------------
Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
They think?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
TNT Executives and their Thinking abilities are a great example of why you should never hire Unskilled Labor.
------------------
Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
JMS was making comments, which didn't always agree with one another
, about a possible "side story" that could go off in the B5 universe after the main five year story was over.
I think over time his conception of what that story should and would be changed, especially given what happened during years four and five of B5.
I think the original conception was something very close to what Rangers is going to be - an action/adventure show about the crew of a spaceship. In a sense, JMS's version of Star Trek: TOS except set in the B5 universe - which has all sorts of unexplored nooks and crannies. I think after five years of the B5 production model, and especially with the advances in CGI, he was convinced that such a show could be made on what he considered to be a realistic budget. (Something that would not have been possible when he was planning B5, which is the main reason that he set it on a space station.)
JMS has always talked in terms of being a fan, and wanting to do the kind of "good" SF shows that the fans complained never got made.
By the time they got to season 4, and it was clear that the show was ending because its "network" was folding, JMS was just glad to be able to "wrap up" the story and move on. He was almost exhausted.
But then TNT entered the picture. They bought the reruns of S1-S4. They commissioned the first two TV movies and the re-edit of The Gathering. The folks he was dealing with were fans, and they were thrilled to have B5. Finally they picked the show up for the fifth season. For the first time in the show's history it was going to have a stable, national timeslot. TNT poured much more money into advertising and promoting the show in one year than PTEN had in four. The ratings were very impressive, so much so that TNT ordered two more TV movies and began asking about a sixth season.
Instead, JMS convinced them to take a sequel. It was a this point that I think his conception of the sequel began to change, and not only because of TNT's involvement. By 1998 the show was doing better than it ever had. Warner Home Video was finally making it available on VHS and laserdisc in the U.S. The exposure on TNT was getting them more national exposure than they'd had since the "dueling space station shows" articles in season one. And suddenly he was being handed a whole extra five years to tell a new story, one that would follow directly on the heels of B5.
Since he had already shunted some story elements out of S4 and into S5, I think he now decided to set up some things in S5 that would really be dealt with in Crusade. The legacy of the Shadows, specifically EarthGov's involvement with them went into Crusade, which would now deal with an EarthForce crew, rather than a Ranger crew. The Telepath War (which JMS was hoping to do in a theatrical film anyway, as a "reward" to the cast) would now play a big role in the backstory of the new show.
Although it would still be something of an action adventure show (as I think can be seen in the first five episodes filmed) it would have more of the dark, political tone of B5 than what he originally envisioned. I think the plan in the back of his mind was to do Rangers later if Crusade proved to be a hit. Granted I also think that TNT later downplayed the B5 roots of Crusade even more than JMS did, but I really believe he altered his own plans for the sequel series because it would give him more time to play with certain themes than he would have had by including them in S5. And Rangers wouldn't have been the right format to deal with these mostly Earth-related themes.
So he got rid of the Ranger crew, made the ship an Earthforce vessel, moved the start point two years into the future and, voila! it mutated into Crusade. But the original Rangers story was still there in his notes.
When Sci-Fi approached him about a new series, I'm sure he gave them the materials for both Crusade and Rangers. They picked Rangers. It doesn't carry the baggage that Crusade does, or the stigma of "failed series" about it. OTOH, if Rangers is a big hit, Sci-Fi still has the option of doing Crusade as well.
Regards,
Joe
------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
I think over time his conception of what that story should and would be changed, especially given what happened during years four and five of B5.
I think the original conception was something very close to what Rangers is going to be - an action/adventure show about the crew of a spaceship. In a sense, JMS's version of Star Trek: TOS except set in the B5 universe - which has all sorts of unexplored nooks and crannies. I think after five years of the B5 production model, and especially with the advances in CGI, he was convinced that such a show could be made on what he considered to be a realistic budget. (Something that would not have been possible when he was planning B5, which is the main reason that he set it on a space station.)
JMS has always talked in terms of being a fan, and wanting to do the kind of "good" SF shows that the fans complained never got made.
By the time they got to season 4, and it was clear that the show was ending because its "network" was folding, JMS was just glad to be able to "wrap up" the story and move on. He was almost exhausted.
But then TNT entered the picture. They bought the reruns of S1-S4. They commissioned the first two TV movies and the re-edit of The Gathering. The folks he was dealing with were fans, and they were thrilled to have B5. Finally they picked the show up for the fifth season. For the first time in the show's history it was going to have a stable, national timeslot. TNT poured much more money into advertising and promoting the show in one year than PTEN had in four. The ratings were very impressive, so much so that TNT ordered two more TV movies and began asking about a sixth season.
Instead, JMS convinced them to take a sequel. It was a this point that I think his conception of the sequel began to change, and not only because of TNT's involvement. By 1998 the show was doing better than it ever had. Warner Home Video was finally making it available on VHS and laserdisc in the U.S. The exposure on TNT was getting them more national exposure than they'd had since the "dueling space station shows" articles in season one. And suddenly he was being handed a whole extra five years to tell a new story, one that would follow directly on the heels of B5.
Since he had already shunted some story elements out of S4 and into S5, I think he now decided to set up some things in S5 that would really be dealt with in Crusade. The legacy of the Shadows, specifically EarthGov's involvement with them went into Crusade, which would now deal with an EarthForce crew, rather than a Ranger crew. The Telepath War (which JMS was hoping to do in a theatrical film anyway, as a "reward" to the cast) would now play a big role in the backstory of the new show.
Although it would still be something of an action adventure show (as I think can be seen in the first five episodes filmed) it would have more of the dark, political tone of B5 than what he originally envisioned. I think the plan in the back of his mind was to do Rangers later if Crusade proved to be a hit. Granted I also think that TNT later downplayed the B5 roots of Crusade even more than JMS did, but I really believe he altered his own plans for the sequel series because it would give him more time to play with certain themes than he would have had by including them in S5. And Rangers wouldn't have been the right format to deal with these mostly Earth-related themes.
So he got rid of the Ranger crew, made the ship an Earthforce vessel, moved the start point two years into the future and, voila! it mutated into Crusade. But the original Rangers story was still there in his notes.
When Sci-Fi approached him about a new series, I'm sure he gave them the materials for both Crusade and Rangers. They picked Rangers. It doesn't carry the baggage that Crusade does, or the stigma of "failed series" about it. OTOH, if Rangers is a big hit, Sci-Fi still has the option of doing Crusade as well.
Regards,
Joe
------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
I think over time his conception of what that story should and would be changed, especially given what happened during years four and five of B5.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>He's also frequently said that he changed details because he was growing as a writer, and was able to come up with more interesting ideas. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>But then TNT entered the picture. They bought the reruns of S1-S4. They commissioned the first two TV movies and the re-edit of The Gathering.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just to clarify. TNT bought reruns to the entire series (however long that might be) in 1995, for broadcast once the show had finished. When, at the end of the 3rd season, it looked like the 4th season would be the last, TNT comissioned the movies. This factored into jms' restructuring of the 4th season, letting him turn a three part episode on the Minbari war become "Atonement" and "In the Beginning". <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Instead, JMS convinced them to take a sequel. It was a this point that I think his conception of the sequel began to change,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It should be noted that before the 5th season became a sure thing, the sequel was being targeted for filming fall 1997, runing either instead of, or cocurrently with the 5th season.[/B][/QUOTE]
I think over time his conception of what that story should and would be changed, especially given what happened during years four and five of B5.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>He's also frequently said that he changed details because he was growing as a writer, and was able to come up with more interesting ideas. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>But then TNT entered the picture. They bought the reruns of S1-S4. They commissioned the first two TV movies and the re-edit of The Gathering.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just to clarify. TNT bought reruns to the entire series (however long that might be) in 1995, for broadcast once the show had finished. When, at the end of the 3rd season, it looked like the 4th season would be the last, TNT comissioned the movies. This factored into jms' restructuring of the 4th season, letting him turn a three part episode on the Minbari war become "Atonement" and "In the Beginning". <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Instead, JMS convinced them to take a sequel. It was a this point that I think his conception of the sequel began to change,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It should be noted that before the 5th season became a sure thing, the sequel was being targeted for filming fall 1997, runing either instead of, or cocurrently with the 5th season.[/B][/QUOTE]
