Criticisms

[Ranger1]

I was thinking the other day and wondering what flaws the show really has, and the only one i can think of is that when they fought the shadow war they never really won any victories, in major engagements all they ever managed were draws, they won the war by outmanoeuvring the shadows strategically and lorien appealing to them, then during the civil war the rebels never seemed to suffer any defeats, the sieges of mars and proxima can't count because they were lifted. anybody got any others?

 

[hypatia]

One of the most impressive parts of B5 to me was how JMS avoided the old, stereotypical "we gotta have a big space battle, with lots of ships blowing up like they are in an oxygen atmosphere..." They out-thought Earth. And who knows what more minor battles were won or lost that weren't mentioned in "our time" peeking in? Add to this the fact that a LOT of people were seriously distrusting Clarke, and it actually made a valid story point, and a valid solution.

Like protesters walking into a line of troops firing at them: we hear now more of the results than the sacrifices that led to the results.

To me the only real "flaw" that comes to mind immediately is that, as much as I loved parts of season 5, it did feel an awful lot like an afterthought. But far better entertainment, by far, than anything else on television. So is that really a flaw?

Also, the writing sometimes got a little "tired looking". But hell, that's the price of a weekly show. A weekly show being basically run from top to bottom by one man: it's amazing it wasn't 90% slop, 9% "eh", and 1% entertainment.

Now, if you want to talk about the attempted "Rangers" sequel, that's another story entirely.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

It appeared to me, from what was said on screen, that the rebels never suffered any defeats in going after Earth because a proportion of the ships on the opposing side tended to defect to theirs thus rendering the Clark-loyal ships outnumbered and out-gunned.

Hence, when it came to Mars, and a huge force railed against them, Sheridan went down the road of "pulling their shorts up over their heads" rather than a straight fight.

 

[Ranger1]

It appeared to me, from what was said on screen, that the rebels never suffered any defeats in going after Earth because a proportion of the ships on the opposing side tended to defect to theirs thus rendering the Clark-loyal ships outnumbered and out-gunned.

Hence, when it came to Mars, and a huge force railed against them, Sheridan went down the road of "pulling their shorts up over their heads" rather than a straight fight.

i just would have liked to have seen them suffer a major defeat and seen how they would have recovered, it's the one area where (god, i almost can't say it) DS9 was better, you saw the bad times as well as the good, as it were.

 

[hypatia]

The problem with setting our heros up as being so abandoned and limited in number is that one "real defeat" would have ended them.

And JMS might have been saving it all up for the ships which sacrificed themselves for Sheridan and the cause, and especially saving it up for Ivanova's tragic defeat.

But it is true that Centauri Prime seemed to inflict more damage. Of course, back to the point that no (or very few) Centauri questioned the legitimacy of their attacks. In a civil war, you are darned well going to have a lot of "showing up but not shooting" and the like, I'd think.

The key point isn't their fighting, it's the "enemy" being so reluctant to fight, in many cases.

 

[GKarsEye]

I was thinking the other day and wondering what flaws the show really has, and the only one i can think of is that when they fought the shadow war they never really won any victories, in major engagements all they ever managed were draws, they won the war by outmanoeuvring the shadows strategically and lorien appealing to them, then during the civil war the rebels never seemed to suffer any defeats, the sieges of mars and proxima can't count because they were lifted. anybody got any others?

This is a strength, not a weakness.
For years we've been shown how these "first races" are so leagues ahead of the other races, so much older and more powerful, that any other ending to the war would have been stupid. What, a bunch of whitestars created by Minbari and humans can stand toe-to-toe with those evil spider monster spaceships that we saw take out entire colonies faster than a commercial break? Or friggin' planet killers?

 

[Ranger1]

This is a strength, not a weakness.
For years we've been shown how these "first races" are so leagues ahead of the other races, so much older and more powerful, that any other ending to the war would have been stupid. What, a bunch of whitestars created by Minbari and humans can stand toe-to-toe with those evil spider monster spaceships that we saw take out entire colonies faster than a commercial break? Or friggin' planet killers?

i agree i was referring to the civil war, i only mentioned the shadow war so others wouldn't. although you have to remember that the white stars were based on vorlon technlogy.

 

[GKarsEye]

Right, forgot about the Vorlon tech. Still, obviously no match for the first ones' tech (remember that the Vorlons had become their enemy as well).

The Civil War was the ass-kicking counter to the head games of the Shadow and Minbari civil wars.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

I think we perhaps also need to bear in mind that JMS was on a clock with the end of season 4. Building in a major defeat and the aftermath of it, and how they recovered might well have required the Earth civil war to spill over into season 5 ... which, of course, was the original plan!

Not saying it would have happened, or that that is what JMS had in mind, but I don't see how it would have been possible to include that in S4 and still reach the satisfying conclusion that we did.

 

[Ranger1]

I think we perhaps also need to bear in mind that JMS was on a clock with the end of season 4. Building in a major defeat and the aftermath of it, and how they recovered might well have required the Earth civil war to spill over into season 5 ... which, of course, was the original plan!

Not saying it would have happened, or that that is what JMS had in mind, but I don't see how it would have been possible to include that in S4 and still reach the satisfying conclusion that we did.

that's true time constraints were an issue.

 

[Elric]

Hi

I've not posted here for a while so thought it was time I poked my head in

In answer to your question, I remember after their first major battle with Earthforce (Proxima I think?) when Sheriden was trying to talk the other captains into joining him, he did say they had lost a few battles but just hadn't broadcast the fact (or words to that effect). So they did lose, we just didn't see it first hand in the show.

However, that does introduce a new flaw - if Sheridens forces had been defeated then I'm sure Clarke would have been gloating about it all over ISN etc and I would have thought he would have made certain his captains/commanders were aware of it (similar to how Sheridens victory in ItB was important for morale etc).

 

[A_M_Swallow]

In answer to your question, I remember after their first major battle with Earthforce (Proxima I think?) when Sheriden was trying to talk the other captains into joining him, he did say they had lost a few battles but just hadn't broadcast the fact (or words to that effect). So they did lose, we just didn't see it first hand in the show.

c/they/he/

The battles Sheridan lost may have nothing to do with the Civil War or even the Shadow War.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

i just would have liked to have seen them suffer a major defeat and seen how they would have recovered,

Actually, given the vastly superior tech of the White Stars, over the Earth Force ships, it seems to me that the lack of accuracy was in not having the White Stars wipe out the Earth Force ships every time. But, if there were no White Stars at a particular engagement, they could have lost big. Seems to me I vaguely remember some mention of such a loss, but sadly, can't really remember.

 

[Zarto]

Actually, given the vastly superior tech of the White Stars, over the Earth Force ships, it seems to me that the lack of accuracy was in not having the White Stars wipe out the Earth Force ships every time. But, if there were no White Stars at a particular engagement, they could have lost big. Seems to me I vaguely remember some mention of such a loss, but sadly, can't really remember.

You have to remember that White Stars are relatively small ships. They are very agile and about fastest ship in the known galaxy. They can beat any ship of same size with no problem. Weaponry is very powerfull for ship that size, wich allows them to engage any big capital ships too. However against big capital ships White stars are not so overpowered as they are against ships close to their own size. Speed and fast manouverability are the key when fighting big capital ships. White Stars have Damage repair system and hull that adapts and reflects energy, but otherwise the hull is pretty "light" (no heavy structure) as ship is counting on it's speed and overall agility. Example Earthforce Omega Destroyers are slow and heavy armored and give big bunch with their main pulse cannons and "laser" beams.

If White Star gets direct hit from Omega beam, it will get heavy damage if not destroyed. (better stay out of heavy weapon fire). White Star has several much smaller weapons wich don't deliver as potent punch as Omega's main weapon when used seperately, but with together with continuous firing White Stars can do severe damage. Of course White Stars can do one singular energy burst with all power to that burst as used against shadows. White Stars are best in a group. 1 vs 1 situation with Omega and White Star can end either way depending on who are commanding ships, tactics and bit of luck.

When fighting Clarks Advanced destroyers Omega-X, White Stars were no match against them, succeeded on destroying them by outnumbering them 5 to 1. A fleet of thirty White Stars suffered heavy casualties, only 7 surviving but were able to completely destroy 6 modified Omegas.

After the war Sheridan recognized the problem of putting White Stars to fight ships double and and triple in size. Not many White Stars survived two wars and by using White Stars against everything they were bound to lose more, hence Sheridans decision to build Destroyer class White Stars, later known as Victory class Destroyers to not only match every other capital ship in the galaxy but top them.

Sorry this went bit offtopic

 

[Lousy_Dodgers]

Hi

In answer to your question, I remember after their first major battle with Earthforce (Proxima I think?) when Sheriden was trying to talk the other captains into joining him, he did say they had lost a few battles but just hadn't broadcast the fact (or words to that effect). So they did lose, we just didn't see it first hand in the show.

I think Sheridan said this when the Agamemnon joined up since he was talking to the ship's captain. He would not have said it at Proxima since that was the first actual major offensive launched against Clark's forces.

The point about Clark boasting about his victories is a good one. Sheridan might be including minor setbacks as defeats. I do not think Clark's forces won actual engagements against Whitestar forces but perhaps they destroyed some ships before they could defect.

Example:

1. Captain and crew of Omega-class destroyer intend to defect so they head off to locate Sheridan
2. Clark's forces learn of this and intercept the vessel
3. Defecting ship gets destroyed.
4. Sheridan's forces arrive too late to save any of the crew