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Could The Crusade Storyline Incorporate a New Crew?

Dayton3

Regular
I've been wondering that if they decided to restart the series Crusade, could an entirely new crew of the Excalibur be used since the originals I'm assuming would be too old by the time this would come about?

Given what little I know about JMS's plans for Crusade I was wondering if the story arc was flexible enough for such a change.

I know that JMS in making Babylon-5 quite cleverly made the story arcs with "trap doors" so that actors/characters could be phased out of the show without hurting the overall story arc much. I think a "trap door" was used when Michael O'Hare was replaced in the series by Bruce Boxleitner.
 
I could be wrong, but, I think I recall JMS saying he wouldn't be opposed to just plain old starting over/rebooting.

To continue what has already been aired, but, without the original actors, would be very difficult I would imagine, since the ship they were using is the only one of it's kind in existence.
 
I could be wrong, but, I think I recall JMS saying he wouldn't be opposed to just plain old starting over/rebooting.

To continue what has already been aired, but, without the original actors, would be very difficult I would imagine, since the ship they were using is the only one of it's kind in existence.

My thinking would be that you could have something happen to the original Excalibur crew (Gideon and the others).

Accidental exposure to the Drakh plague forcing them to be stranded somewhere in isolation.

Political opposition from Gideons enemies forcing their removal.

Stuff like that.

Who has control of Crusade incidentally?
 
I could be wrong, but, I think I recall JMS saying he wouldn't be opposed to just plain old starting over/rebooting.

I don't remember JMS saying anything along those lines, although I suppose I could have missed something.

The last episode of Crusade finished shooting 8 years ago this month. Even assuming that a great success for TLT might lead WB to consider relaunching Crusade as a D2DVD project (or get a TV netowrk or cable channel interested in carrying it), by the time it Crusade could go back before the cameras the show would have been dead for 10 years. The series was projected to run between 5 and 7 years (JMS said the arc would be more flexible and less "intense" than B5's) - 110 to 154 episodes. They shot 13 of them. Based on all that I'd be inclined to say that the most rational thing to do would be to recast and start from scratch. The biggest continuity problem would be the intended cross-overs with B5, although there is some wiggle room given that Crusade S1 took place five years after B5 season 5.

The other "issue" would be A Call to Arms. This is less of a problem than some people make it out to be. Apart from Lochley, only two Crusade regulars appear in the film - one a bald Englishman dressed neckt-to-toe in enveloping black, the other an alien female in heavy make-up and prosthetics. With all due respect to Peter Woodward and Carrie Dobro (and I really admire both performers) neither is utterly irreplaceable. Put another actor in those roles and given them over 100 episodes to play with and guess who becomes the definitive interpreter of the characters? The new actors would be the standard, ACtA would be a curiosity and a footnote.

Regards,

Joe
 
I could be wrong, but, I think I recall JMS saying he wouldn't be opposed to just plain old starting over/rebooting.

To continue what has already been aired, but, without the original actors, would be very difficult I would imagine, since the ship they were using is the only one of it's kind in existence.

To continue what has already been aired of Crusade, but without the same actors (I'm not talking about extras walking around in the background, here.), would be jarring and ridiculous.



My thinking would be that you could have something happen to the original Excalibur crew (Gideon and the others).

Accidental exposure to the Drakh plague forcing them to be stranded somewhere in isolation.

Political opposition from Gideons enemies forcing their removal.

Stuff like that.

I hope that doesn't happen, because it would ruin my enjoyment of it. Gary Cole as Capt. Gideon, Peter Woodward as Galen, David Allen Brooks as Eilerson, Daniel Dae Kim as Lt. Matheson, Carrie Dobro as Dureena are what I most enjoyed about the show. Those people in those characters is a large part of what was right about the show. Without them, it wouldn't be Crusade. I also wish they could keep Alex Mendoza as Trace Miller, Tracy Scoggins as Capt. Lochley (necessary because of her B5 background), and Marjean Holden as Dr. Chambers (assuming that Crusade isn't totally reshot (See 2, below.).

What I wish would happen is one of the following:

1. Re-starting Crusade using the same actors in the same roles, as much as the existing aired episodes and footage as possible, recreating the Crusade 1999 CGI to achieve a look that is not more than subtly different from what already exists in the aired episodes, and just editing episodes to remove and replace the worst bits (e.g. in War Zone, the fight scenes, the "Earth in Panic" stock footage, and some of the heavy exposition like the campfire scene, and in Patterns of the Soul[/u] get rid of the Shadow Fighters' slicer beams unless that wasn't a mistake.).

or

2. Starting Crusade from the beginning and reshooting the first season, using the same actors in the same roles (except that I would not be averse to casting another actor as Dr. Chambers), and new, improved CGI. Existing ship designs from Babylon 5 and the Babylon 5 TV movies should not look more than sublty different (maybe improved detail, improved skins, etc.). This way would allow JMS to remove all traces of TNT influence that didn't work, and keep all bits of TNT influence that could be made into a positive thing. For example, start out with the black uniforms and avoid the whole uniform change issue.

Of course, all of this is a pipe dream unless I win the Powerball jackpot when it's up around $300 Million, and that in itself is a pipe dream as I can't even win $3 in the Powerball.
 
Maybe what they could do is re-start Crusade from scratch and make it look like the 13 eps were all just a dream that someone had. That someone could be one of the original characters, provided they could get the original actor to portray him/her. Perhaps that person could have Gideon's Apocalypse Box and it was the Box that was responsible for giving that person the dream. ;)
 
A somewhat more likely scenario:

JMS writes his way into a new scenario. We have a brief backstory where the Excalibur is mysteriously destroyed, and a group of Rangers and EarthForce personnel set out to investigate. They pick up where the Excalibur left off, and away we go -- new crew, new ship. Possibly ships -- an Omega-class destroyer and a White Star, for example, operating in tandem?
 
Maybe what they could do is re-start Crusade from scratch and make it look like the 13 eps were all just a dream that someone had.

JMS writes his way into a new scenario.


??? Why bother? Again - 110 to 154 total episodes projected, 13 finished. In TV terms hardly anyone every saw said 13 episodes when they aired the better part of a decade ago, or when they were rerun a couple of times after that, and only hardcore fans have the DVDs. Best bet: forget they ever existed, start over. (This isn't saying that you can't use any of the original cast who happen to be available, but you recast where necessary.)

Why insist on hanging onto the first 13, half of which were subpar to begin with?

It makes a lot more sense to reshoot the salvagable scripts from the first batch with a new or partially new cast than to do a Dallas dream sequence. I think it makes more sense to ask the fans to imagine that the first 13 episodes "never happened" in the context of a revived series than to ask the characters in the story to do so. :)

And what the hell would be the point of essentially starting a new show with a new cast anyway, but then burdening it with the continuity of the handful of episodes that practically nobody (in the larger world) saw or remembers? Surely that approach would be the worst of both worlds. At least a reboot keeps the cool ship and the intriguing characters. Somehow Battlestar Galactica managed to pull off a reboot, despite the worst fears of its fans. There's no reason why Crusade couldn't do a better job - despite the fears of anal-retentive fans who cannot tolerate change in any form. :)

Regards,

Joe
 
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Okay, a better approach: a completely new show that in time absorbes Crusade's storyline into it as one of its many arcs. So in this case the Rangers aren't looking for Excalibur, they just happen to find its shattered remains during a routine random sweep.

My main idea is just trying to get the stories of Crusade back somehow, because if JMS thought it was worth putting them onscreen back then, they're probably still worth seeing in one way or another.
 
Okay, a better approach: a completely new show that in time absorbes Crusade's storyline into it as one of its many arcs. So in this case the Rangers aren't looking for Excalibur, they just happen to find its shattered remains during a routine random sweep.

Yeah, 'cause that was my objection to your earlier idea - them looking for Excalibur on purpose. :eek: You truly have a gift for totally missing other people's points.

My main idea is just trying to get the stories of Crusade back somehow, because if JMS thought it was worth putting them onscreen back then, they're probably still worth seeing in one way or another.

That's also my main idea. Mine has the advantage of doing this by allowing JMS to tell the "Crusade" story in the context of a show called Crusade and following his originally planned story arcs.

Again, what would be so horrible about just setting the original 13 aside and shooting "Racing the Night" with a new or partially new cast and bringing Crusade back as a new series without trying to tie it into the earlier continuity? I still don't see the advantage of what you're proposing - going with a new series instead of Crusade, but finding the wreck of the Excalibur, etc. :)

Regards,

Joe

(Message edited to remove the imaginary debate with KoshN that I was having in my head after losing track of which Vorlon I was speaking to. A thousand apologies to both.)
 
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Joe, I may well have a gift for missing other people's points... but I believe you have a gift, today at least, for confusing me with someone else.

Considering that I've never seen Rangers or A Call to Arms, I'm not quite certain how many of my posts over the years could be dedicated to complaining about them. And truth be told, I've only seen a smattering of Crusade, as well, so the show doesn't really live in my head as it does in others. (Perhaps you've gotten me confused with a different Vorlon?)

So truth be told, I wouldn't mind a reboot at all, as I've got no real investment in Crusade at the moment; my theorizing began largely out of how I perceive JMS would do it. To my mind he doesn't work that way, he works around it. So when Pat Tallman bailed after The Gathering, he wrote in Talia's role, and when Tallman came back he wrote Talia right back out again -- but always in a way that made sense within the story and contradicted the rest as little as possible. That's where my ideas came from.
 
You are absolutely right and I do mostly humbly apologize. In writing what you did you covered so many of the familiar tropes favored by another of your species that I completely lost track of which Vorlon was which. I should know to check the names by now, and I just screwed up.

I will edit my earlier message to remove comments not really directed at you, while retaining my argument on the facts.

As for JMS not recasting. This is a totally different situation. B5 was an ongoing series and there are always changes between pilot and series. But I think JMS still wanted to use Lyta as a character down the road, even if only as a guest star, to pay off the connection she established with Kosh in the pilot. (Just as he later did with Sinclair to finish his thread.) JMS did recast various ambassadors, Draal, and Na'Toth when the story required that particular character and the original actor wasn't available.

But in all these cases JMS was working within real-world constraints on a series that was still in production and on-going. With Crusade he'd be restarting a show that lasted half a season and aired the better part of a decade ago. Since it is unlikely that he'd be able to assemble the entire original cast, or that he'd be able to match the look and feel of the original to such a degree that anyone could air the 13 episodes from 1999 and then show a 2008 or 2009 episode the following week, he'd have two choices: Find some elaborate way to explain all the differences or simply wipe the slate clean and start from scratch. Given that hardly anyone who would be the potential audience for a new series now would even have heard of the original show, I don't see why JMS wouldn't just cut his losses (especially since only 5 of the original episodes were really the show he wanted to make) rather than toss all the TNT-influenced scripts and start over telling the story he wanted to tell. (Also given the post-9/11 sensitivity about the very word "crusade", there's is every chance that a reboot would end up with some other title anyway.)

Regards,

Joe
 
I reckon all them encounter suits look the same anyway :p

Excalibur could easily be found empty or at least with the crew dead.A nice little space virus could sort that out easy enough.Then you have the ship and research it had already made and a mission to fulfill.Same ship,same mission with new crew.

Starting from scratch wouldn't bother me either as so little was given away in the original series anyway.I would like to see where JMS was going with the series.
 
Excalibur could easily be found empty or at least with the crew dead. A nice little space virus could sort that out easy enough. Then you have the ship and research it had already made and a mission to fulfill. Same ship, same mission with new crew.

Gee, if we put David Martel in command and give him a Minbari XO who can see dead people, we could kill two birds with one stone and revive Rangers as well. ;)

Regards,

Joe
 
A lot of what JoeD is advocating below is what I am advocating as option 2 in Post #6 of this thread. Grrrr, I really hate to reply to these, but I have to address some of the points. Replies to three posts in one....

Best bet: forget they ever existed, start over.
Not all of it. There were some good scripts there, some in the TNT Black Uniform group. Not all of the Black Uniform episodes were bad. In fact, The Path of Sorrows is one of my favorite episodes.

(This isn't saying that you can't use any of the original cast who happen to be available, but you recast where necessary.)
But where you could get the original cast, and you think they did a good job, get 'em.


Why insist on hanging onto the first 13, half of which were subpar to begin with?
Even the subpar scripts had their good points. e.g the Eilerson scenes of Ruling from the Tomb.

It makes a lot more sense to reshoot the salvagable scripts from the first batch with a new or partially new cast....

Which ones do you consider salvagable? The Fashion Designer thread of Appearances and Other Deceits is no longer necessary if you don't have the accursed uniform change, but the alien invasion thread could be used. Perhaps, JMS could write a different B-thread for the episode.


At least a reboot keeps the cool ship and the intriguing characters. Somehow Battlestar Galactica managed to pull off a reboot, despite the worst fears of its fans. There's no reason why Crusade couldn't do a better job - despite the fears of anal-retentive fans who cannot tolerate change in any form. :)

You can't be talking about me here, because my option 2 is a reshoot. I want to keep that cool ship and those intriguing characters. However, I think the reshot Crusade (or whatever name they pick), should blend well with the look of the existing Babylon 5 universe.




That's also my main idea. Mine has the advantage of doing this by allowing JMS to tell the "Crusade" story in the context of a show called Crusade and following his originally planned story arcs.

Again, what would be so horrible about just setting the original 13 aside and shooting "Racing the Night" with a new or partially new cast and bringing Crusade back as a new series without trying to tie it into the earlier continuity?
Not all aspects of the earlier continuity, e.g. the uniform change. Use the black uniforms for all the episodes. Jettison the fashion designer bit, and the laundry accident bit from To the Ends of the Earth. Jettison all the crappy bits of War Zone (the fight scenes, the Earth in panic stuff, the tie between Ensign James and Mr. Ames, etc.). There's a lot of the War Zone script that could be kept. Write new, good scenes to replace the bad.




(Message edited to remove the imaginary debate with KoshN that I was having in my head after losing track of which Vorlon I was speaking to. A thousand apologies to both.)
You are absolutely right and I do mostly humbly apologize. In writing what you did you covered so many of the familiar tropes favored by another of your species that I completely lost track of which Vorlon was which. I should know to check the names by now, and I just screwed up.

I will edit my earlier message to remove comments not really directed at you, while retaining my argument on the facts.
You were imaginarily and reflexively arguing with me when in fact we were agreeing on a lot of things?


With Crusade he'd be restarting a show that lasted half a season and aired the better part of a decade ago. Since it is unlikely that he'd be able to assemble the entire original cast,...

But it would be a good thing to strive for, to try to get the original cast back. Some of them did a terrific job (e.g. Gary Cole, Daniel Dae Kim, Carrie Dobro, David Allen Brooks and Peter Woodward). Hell, I'd even go for getting Alex Mendoza back, as long as they glued that strip of hair in place. :devil:


...or that he'd be able to match the look and feel of the original to such a degree that anyone could air the 13 episodes from 1999 and then show a 2008 or 2009 episode the following week,

That's why I suggested a reshoot, starting from the beginning. It reduces the problem of matching the looks.

... he'd have two choices: Find some elaborate way to explain all the differences
No, not good. Simplicity is a thing of beauty, and the complex can look ham-handed and contrived.


... or simply wipe the slate clean and start from scratch.
...with the salvagable scripts, including scripts that could be used whole and those that could be fixed (scenes deleted, new scenes written).


Given that hardly anyone who would be the potential audience for a new series now would even have heard of the original show, I don't see why JMS wouldn't just cut his losses (especially since only 5 of the original episodes were really the show he wanted to make) rather than toss all the TNT-influenced scripts and start over telling the story he wanted to tell.

The "rather than" doesn't parse. Perhaps you meant "and" ? Some of those TNT-influenced scripts worked. e.g. The Well of Forever TNT gave JMS lemons (notes), and he made lemonade. <thumbs up>

Production Order:
101 The Needs of Earth (Script OK as-is.)
102 The Memory of War (Script OK as-is.)
103 Racing the Night (Script OK as-is.)
104 Visitors from Down the Street (Script OK as-is, but please rework the rubber fishing worm headgear! :rolleyes:)
105 Each Night I Dream of Home (Reshoot sans Dr. Franklin. :()

The first production shutdown.

106 The Well of Forever (Script OK as-is.)
107 The Long Road (Script OK as-is.)
108 War Zone (Delete the TNT crap and rework the script.)
109 The Path of Sorrows (Script OK as-is. Maybe get Pat this time. :D)
110 Patterns of the Soul (Script OK as-is.)
111 Ruling from the Tomb (God, I hated most of this.)
112 The Rules of the Game (Script OK as-is. Recast Polix. :()
113 Appearances and Other Deceits (Lose the fashion designer bit.)

Unfilmed Scripts:
Value Judgements (Yay Bester! Script OK as-is.)
To the Ends of the Earth (Delete the laundry accident stuff.)
End of the Line (Script OK as-is.)
 
Although I don't expect I'm going to be too popular for saying this, I simply don't believe that anyone is ever going to pay to revive a series that ran for 13 episodes 8 years ago, was never really a critical success, currently enjoys virtually zero public awareness (doesn't even have name recognition), is known to have led to enormous friction between the network and the main creative force, was in many senses broken before it aired, and divided even fans of the B5 universe over its quality. It makes no business sense whatsoever (at least to me) to revive that storyline on that premise as a series. Heck, the initial (year one) premise wasn't even a premise that JMS wanted to do until TNT started making suggestions..

Obviously the plague storyline is one of the biggest outstanding unresolved questions in the B5 universe at the moment, and I expect we'll see it addressed (or at least referred to) in TLT or other future projects, where we already know that members of the cast (such as Galen) will show up. And I expect the secondary 'real' premise might return in some form, although to be honest the tiny snippets we know about going renegade and leftover shadowtech make it sound like material that was already amply covered in Babylon 5 (although I accept JMS might have had some new twists up his sleeve that he's never revealed). I also don't want to exclude the possibility that it might be revisited as a TV movie.

But after all this time I think any new series projects in the current incarnation of B5 would be much more likely to have a new premise, free of all that baggage..

(and sorry Legend of the Rangers fans, I don't think that one's likely to get revived either :) )
 
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