Consequences for Using Telepaths or Off Scott Free

[Ninja_Squirrel]

If you haven't seen the end of the Season 4, this post contains spoilers...



One thing that's not really explained in Rising Stars is whether Sheridan suffered any consequences for using the frozen telepaths to disable 30 EF ships. Granted, he was forced to resign from EF, but it seems that's more for taking the overall military action against Earth, not for the specific action of using unconscious people for war.

I know he explains that the 30 out of 100 that he used were without family or the most likely incurable, but you'd think using any human without their knowledge or expressed consent for the purpose of war would raise some moral red flags with someone--the Psi-Corps, if no one else.

Sheridan was probably interrogated for quite some time, so he had plenty of opportunity to explain and justify his actions. No doubt he exlained the use of the telepaths. However, the telepaths were being used for Shadow ships, and it appears Mars and, therefore, probably Earth were in the dark, or at least in denial, about the Shadows and the Great War. Surely, explaining both the Shadow War and his Earth insurrection was a tough conversation.

His actions involved taking over EF property, using alien ships to fight his own people, destruction of EF property, destruction of Mars property, destruction of the Earth defense systems, and the unathorized use of frozen humans who were probably killed for taking actions they were programmed to take under alien influence. It just seems like being required to resign is a pretty fluffy punishment.

Take into consideration that what he did was "necessary although inconvenient" then most of his actions are justifiable militarily and politically. So for those things, forced resignation is good enough. However, the use of the telepaths is the one thing that you'd think would be more of a moral issue. A lawsuit from the Psi-Corps would be the very least I would expect out of it.

Did Sheridan get off easy for the telepath issue?

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

The Shadows and the War were kept from the people of Earth and Mars, certainly, but there were plenty within the government, the military and the Psi Corps who knew about both. The military was happily adapting Shadow tech for its ships, and Psi Corps itself was responsible for getting those "blips" implanted with Shadow technology that could never be removed without killing them, and which made them so dangerous that they could never be let out of an induced coma. That isn't exactly Sheridan's fault or his problem, and it is hardly something that Psi Corps could raise any moral objection to. He used people who had already been destroyed by others in a bid to end the civil war with the fewest casualties on both sides. (He would have had no choice but to destroy the fleet at Mars if he hadn't been able to almost bloodlessly disable so many of them.)

Nor do I see the problem with "using alien ships", if by that you mean the White Stars. Those that took direct action in the war were at least partially crewed and always commanded by Humans. With the exception of Earth's attacks against Babylon 5 itself, Sheridan didn't use alien crews or commanders to fight battles against EarthForce. The final offensive against the Sol system was strictly limited to ships under Human command. The alien ships intervened only at the end, when President Clark turned Earth's defenses against its people, and then they were "fighting" unmanned satellites.

Regards,

Joe

 

[sleepy_shadow]

Re: Consequences for Using Telepaths or Off Scott

It would depend... on multiple questions.

Q1: Were they sentient any longer?
(If no, they might be more expendable.)

Answer: they appeared sentient. When Lyta temporarily cancelled out the commands of the "preparatory" device, the person awakened, communicated in manner indicating thought and intellect... and unfortunately made the decision of suicide (which all might not make).

Their past personalities may have already been damaged (although none had merged with a Shadow vessel) but their current personalities certainly appeared sentient.

Q2: Had they agreed to fight?
(If yes, their loss might be considered consequence of their own wishes.)

Answer: almost certainly no. With high probability, all were taken against their will.

Q3: Had they done anything to provoke it?
(If yes, their loss might be considered consequence of their own wishes.)

Answer: almost certainly no. They had not provoked their abuduction, modification or use as weapons.

Q4: Was their death imminent anyway?
(Of minute relevance if the answer is yes.)

Answer: no, their death was not imminent. Their stasis could have been continued until technology would become available to increase their chances.

Q5: How many were likely to die?
(Less likeliness might diminish the crime of using them.)

Answer: I have no information. We certainly see one person face two Earth Force soldiers (who are about to fire, possibly to defend their own lives). Overall, I cannot tell how many died, and how many survived the incident.

--------

Either way, in that twist of story, Sheridan appears to have made his only choice... which might be considered a war crime.

However, due to factors notably diminishing his guilt... it appears that nobody was too keen on officially judging his choice.

Unofficially, like all actions, it must have influenced how he was perceived by others -- towards the perception that if provided a fuzzy enough choice, and dire enough need... he might step across the line.

From a retrospective perspective, what became of the other frozen telepaths... matters. Naturally, a retrospective perspective involving knowledge unavailable at the time... cannot be used to measure the justice of a choice.

-----------------

But overall, I would have considered it more just to fight the Earth ships using inanimate weapons -- possibly destroying many ships, and many more lives.

Lives of people who had *chosen* to fight, had control over their actions... and had the option of sabotage/mutiny open before them.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Re: Consequences for Using Telepaths or Off Scott

Again, Sheridan didn't create the teepsicles, Clark's allies the Shadows, and his allies in the Psi Corps did that to people who were already in rebellion against at least part of EarthGov in general and Clark's regime in particular. (The teeps involved were all "rogues", telepaths trying to live outside a Corps that was not only evil itself but which had conspired for years with Clark and which was no doubt involved in the assassination of this predecessor.) Arguably Sheridan gave them their one shot at revenge against the people who had forcibly turned them into machines. There's no point in arguing about what they might have done given the choice. If they'd could have exercised choice by having the devices removed, Sheridan would never have used them. It was only their hopeless state that drove him to do what he did. (And it was hopeless. SPOILERS for the TELEPATH TRILOGY FOLLOW:

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Even after 5 years work by some of the best scientists on Earth and Mars no one has been able to remove the implants or release the surviving teeps without killing them when Lyta's war against Psi Corps breaks out. All of them are killed when a Psi Corps facility on Mars is destroyed in the course of the war, including Bester's pregnant lover.)

Regards,

Joe

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Take into consideration that what he did was "necessary although inconvenient" then most of his actions are justifiable militarily and politically. So for those things, forced resignation is good enough. However, the use of the telepaths is the one thing that you'd think would be more of a moral issue. A lawsuit from the Psi-Corps would be the very least I would expect out of it.

Did Sheridan get off easy for the telepath issue?

Psi Corps sent Bester to see Sheridan to cover up the existence of the implanted telepaths. No court case there.

 

[Shism]

Re: Consequences for Using Telepaths or Off Scott

But still,
- even if the frozen Telepath's chances to ever return to any semblance of a normal life were minute,
- even if Sheridan isn't responsible for getting them in that situation in the first place,
- and even if your situation where so dire as Sheridan's,

that doesn't make it OK to use and sacrifice them as weapons in a war .

Was it inevitable for victory? Probably.
Did it save many more lives than where sacrificed? Certainly.
Does that make it 'the moral highground'? Definitely not.

No beating around the bush: this sort of thing generally is considered a war crime, the only reason Sheridan wasn't prosecuted was the political instability at the time

If that makes Sheridan a 'bad person' is a whole different matter to which I believe the answer is 'no'.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

Re: Consequences for Using Telepaths or Off Scott

Was it inevitable for victory? Probably.

The question has relevance... yet my impression was that victory did not depend on it.

Clearly the White Stars, multiple Minbari ships and numerous herein unmentioned from other civilizations... could have easily shot apart some dozens of Omega destroyers.

If given great motivation and permission to take off gloves... ten Minbari cruisers might have finished off the "defenders" of Mars. With gloves on (targeting mainly weapons, sensors and engines) adding some fifteen White Stars might have sufficed.

Victory in that battle was not in peril -- merely losses would differ. Assuming that only a few Omegas would flee (or experience a sudden change of command) their crews would suffer notable casualties, possibly extending into thousands.

It was a choice... between notable casualties among those armed... and smaller casualties... among innocent victims of a third party.

Such choices should not be made... but when made, a deliberate armed opponent is always a just target... while an unarmed person who has not chosen to fight... is even if suitable, never a just weapon.

The only defense I can think up for Sheridan's choice... is that most Earth Force crews were not deliberate, informed opponents... but people forced to act via threat, manipulation and misinformation.

While that would slide many Earth Force crewmembers outside the "deliberate informed opponent" category... it would not negate the fact they they were bearing arms for a totalitarian government.

 

[grumbler]

Re: Consequences for Using Telepaths or Off Scott

A very interesting question and issue, but one which has so far failed to consider a key question: had the telesickles themselves been given the choice, would they have agreed with Sheridan's plan?

If yes, then the question is moot.

If no, then the argument is made that this was a crime.

I would certainly myself, in those conditions, say "yes" to the plan. The liberation of earth was clearly the only way that there was any hope for these teeps - Franklin himself admitted as much. The earthgov as was clearly had no incentive, and many disincentives, to help the them.

Now, the argument could be made that simply by keeping them in cryo storage the teepsickles would have had every chance of EVENTUALLY being cured, but then they would have been people out of time. Everyone they knew would likely be dead, and they would have no knowledge or skills needed to make a life for themselves.

No, it was a gamble, and one the "victims" didn't get a chance to decide to wager on, but if they HAD been able to decide, I think the chances are very good to excellent that they would have signed on for a 30% chance of dying for the reward of a 70% shot at really living.

If I am right, then Sheridan carries no burden for this. I think I would have made the choice he did.

 

[Shaal Mayan]

I would think that Psi Corp would want to sweep this under the rug so to speak cause I think it would cause too many questions and the Psi Corps had the most to lose IMHO they would have to explain who signed off on the documents. I think it had to be someone high up in the corp who thought nobody would miss a bunch of rogue teeps.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

My thoughts on the subject:

One could assume that they were no more human than Anna Sheridan.

He could have inducted them. Many wars have been fought with unwilling conscripts.

You could just consider them prisoners of war that Sheridan had captured, and decided to return to Earthforce. What they did when they got there wasn't his business.

At any rate, he did his best to take the least lives, so it was justified. Less debateable than bombing Hiroshima.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

Re: Consequences for Using Telepaths or Off Scott

My counter-arguments:

One could assume that they were no more human than Anna Sheridan.

They had undergone much less than Anna Sheridan. Never merged with a Shadow ship -- never been extracted from one. The new personality of Anna Sheridan was an active proponent of the enemy. Those telepaths were merely victims.

When not overwhelmed by the implants (a state which could be maintained only temporarily, by a powerful enough telepath)... they realized what had happened to them.

They were sentient alright, merely incapable of maintaining self-control without constant and powerful external help.

He could have inducted them.

He could have also employed as cannon fodder the sick, the wounded and the insane. Never did, though -- probably for a reason.

Many wars have been fought with unwilling conscripts.

Many political/military leaders should have (and luckily some have) payed dearly for such practises. That unjust things have occured before... would not form a valid defense for doing something unjust.

You could just consider them prisoners of war

Prisoners of war should be treated in humane fashion -- certainly not sent into the line of fire, after being implanted with weapons against their will (even if by another party) to have those implants triggered agains their will. That is an absolutely clean-cut war crime.

Prisoners of war may be returned when conditions permit their safe return. If for whatever reason, they have become insane, they should be delivered from medical personnel to medical personnel, along with an adequate description of their condition.

What they did when they got there wasn't his business.

Knowledge and premeditation made it his business.

At any rate, he did his best to take the least lives, so it was justified.

That manoeuver mainly saved people who were wielding weapons for a totalitarian state. Did they deserve to be saved... or did they deserve to save themselves, by turning their weapons against their commanders?

Less debateable than bombing Hiroshima.

Less... but only somewhat less.

 

[QMCO5]

Sheridan's resignation rankles me somewhat, because in the real world the winners make the rules. Sheridan had told his fellow EF captains that once they kicked out Clark they would let the voters decide whether they were right. Instead Sheridan submits to a military tribunal and an acting President who wants to make sure that Sheridan doesn't take over the government. Sheridan's use of telepaths is not a moral dilemma as far as I'm concerned. As a military officer my job is to destroy the enemy and I'll use his weapons as well as my own to accomplish the mission. Of course, JMS wrote the story the way he did on purpose. He apparently wanted Sheridan to appear submissive in order to assure the completion of his conspiracy with Delenn to form a new Intersellar Alliance. That implies a much larger moral dilemma of just how altruistic and noble were Sheridans's actions in making war on Clark.

QMCO5

 

[sleepy_shadow]

Re: Consequences for Using Telepaths or Off Scott

There is a difference between using power obtained via just means (power given by another)... and using power obtained via unjust means (power taken from another).

Taking something unjustly from one... makes it suspectable that the action may be repeated with another. That tends not only be morally unacceptable, but practically counterproductive -- since it breeds justified doubt.

However, for loss of trust to outweigh temporary benefit from misuse of authority... there must be enough people who know, remember... and proceed to exhibit distrust.

--------

Sheridan obviously made a calculated choice -- he thought he needed more allies among members of Earth Force, even if some of said would backstab him on first opportunity (and the rest appeared too easy to brainwash).

He needed less allies among the few families of the dead telepaths, and deliberately selected those who had no family to make less enemies.

Very illustrative of the realities of life... especially about never trusting a wielder of power to make decisions based on other principles than self-interest. Even the very good eventually lose their principles. Only the best may recover their principles after losing them.

In the long term, though... Sheridan may have miscalculated. The people who continued serving in Earth Force instead of dying in a last stand for Clark... were likely to continue undermining both his and Earth interests for many years to come.

Offering them a chance to die defending their principles might have been the better option. Chances are most of them would have surrendered, and those who would not have... might have deserved their decreased chances.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Re: Consequences for Using Telepaths or Off Scott

What they did when they got there wasn't his business.

Knowledge and premeditation made it his business.

The implanted telepaths were being actively controlled by Lyta. This is the same as a cavalry horse. The general has full responsibility for their actions.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Sheridan's resignation rankles me somewhat, because in the real world the winners make the rules. Sheridan had told his fellow EF captains that once they kicked out Clark they would let the voters decide whether they were right. Instead Sheridan submits to a military tribunal and an acting President who wants to make sure that Sheridan doesn't take over the government.

Sheridan was running a bluff at this point. To invade Earth an army is needed. Sheridan's infantry consists of a few hundred lightly armed policemen and Rangers. The Gropos'es tanks and artillery would soon wipe them out.

If Sheridan was lucky half the Gropos regiments may join his side. The resulting civil war could last for years and kill millions. Bringing in alien mercenaries would be a bad idea, they will loot Earth - the return of Helen of Troy did not stop the siege of Troy.

Sheridan's other job is to get the alien military to go home, there must have been a few admirals there who would like the glory of turning Earth into a colony.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: Consequences for Using Telepaths or Off Scott

My counter-counter arguments:

My counter-arguments:

One could assume that they were no more human than Anna Sheridan.

They had undergone much less than Anna Sheridan. Never merged with a Shadow ship -- never been extracted from one. The new personality of Anna Sheridan was an active proponent of the enemy. Those telepaths were merely victims.

When not overwhelmed by the implants (a state which could be maintained only temporarily, by a powerful enough telepath)... they realized what had happened to them.

They were sentient alright, merely incapable of maintaining self-control without constant and powerful external help.

They were not able to function as humans, and quite possibly never would be able to do so. Though 'reconstructed,' Anna at least HAD a personality, and was able to function.

He could have inducted them.

He could have also employed as cannon fodder the sick, the wounded and the insane. Never did, though -- probably for a reason.

Many wars have been fought with unwilling conscripts.

Many political/military leaders should have (and luckily some have) payed dearly for such practises. That unjust things have occured before... would not form a valid defense for doing something unjust.

It is fairly recent for the US to use an all volunteer army. Conscription is generally accepted as acceptable. Also, it isn't that unusual for the wounded to have to fight, in desparate situations, and where they can't be evacuated.

You could just consider them prisoners of war

Prisoners of war should be treated in humane fashion -- certainly not sent into the line of fire, after being implanted with weapons against their will (even if by another party) to have those implants triggered agains their will. That is an absolutely clean-cut war crime.

Prisoners of war may be returned when conditions permit their safe return. If for whatever reason, they have become insane, they should be delivered from medical personnel to medical personnel, along with an adequate description of their condition.

He didn't put them in the line of fire. It isn't always possible to observe all the medical niceties when returning prisoners during a conflict.

What they did when they got there wasn't his business.

Knowledge and premeditation made it his business.

At any rate, he did his best to take the least lives, so it was justified.

That manoeuver mainly saved people who were wielding weapons for a totalitarian state. Did they deserve to be saved... or did they deserve to save themselves, by turning their weapons against their commanders?

I think you're clearly wrong here. Sheridan wanted to save the lives of his own people just as much as those fighting for Clark. Without his ploy, his people would have been trying to disable Clark's forces, and kill as few as possible. This would have made Sheridan's forces much more vulnerable, and they could have expected more casualties. He did this to save lives on BOTH sides.

Less debateable than bombing Hiroshima.

Less... but only somewhat less.

Also, I see nothing wrong about taking your enemys' weapons away from them, and turning those weapons against them. These teeps HAD been converted into 'weapons components,' were no longer human, and had no real hope of being human again. It is uncharacteristically cold-blooded of me, I know, but I see both your view, and my view as reasonable, but accepting my view results in the least loss of life, and I see that as the most important factor.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Sheridan's resignation rankles me somewhat, because in the real world the winners make the rules. Sheridan had told his fellow EF captains that once they kicked out Clark they would let the voters decide whether they were right. Instead Sheridan submits to a military tribunal and an acting President who wants to make sure that Sheridan doesn't take over the government. Sheridan's use of telepaths is not a moral dilemma as far as I'm concerned. As a military officer my job is to destroy the enemy and I'll use his weapons as well as my own to accomplish the mission. Of course, JMS wrote the story the way he did on purpose. He apparently wanted Sheridan to appear submissive in order to assure the completion of his conspiracy with Delenn to form a new Intersellar Alliance. That implies a much larger moral dilemma of just how altruistic and noble were Sheridans's actions in making war on Clark.

QMCO5

His resignation rankles me too, but I see it somewhat differently. It was the acting President, and the powers on the ground who gave her that title that had actually seized control in the wake of Clark's collapse. Sheridan certainly wasn't going to fight THEM for control, since seizing power wasn't his goal, getting rid of the Clark gov, and restoring the constitution, was. At that point, protecting the people who fought with him for that goal became his most important goal, and he got it. He was treated rather poorly by the new acting gov, undeservedly so, but given the nature of politics, not suprisingly so. I think his new position came as a bit of a suprise to him, although he suspected something, and knew his allies wouldn't let him down. That wasn't the first time Delenn saved his butt!

 

[grumbler]

Sheridan's resignation rankles me somewhat, because in the real world the winners make the rules. Sheridan had told his fellow EF captains that once they kicked out Clark they would let the voters decide whether they were right. Instead Sheridan submits to a military tribunal and an acting President who wants to make sure that Sheridan doesn't take over the government.

Yes, and in doing so he demonstrates that he is keeping his word. Resigning from Earthforce was a way of sending a message that he was not acting for his own benefit. It was exactly the honorable thing to do.

Sheridan's use of telepaths is not a moral dilemma as far as I'm concerned. As a military officer my job is to destroy the enemy and I'll use his weapons as well as my own to accomplish the mission. Of course, JMS wrote the story the way he did on purpose. He apparently wanted Sheridan to appear submissive in order to assure the completion of his conspiracy with Delenn to form a new Intersellar Alliance. That implies a much larger moral dilemma of just how altruistic and noble were Sheridans's actions in making war on Clark.

Huh. I wondered why JMS wrote the line for Sheridan that went "it [using the telepaths] was the hardest decision I ever had to make" when talking to bester. Obviously for SHERIDAN is WAS a huge moral dilemma. Of course, he didn't view the teeps as "weapons" like you do, so naturally his moral stance would differ.

I don't see any evidence that Sheridan's desire to avoid a post-Clarke civil war on Earth had anything to do with the impending creation of the IA. After all, Sheridan know that if HE wasn't elected President, Delenn would be, and thus he would have virtually the same powers either way (and he didn't seem to care much about titles, so who held the title wouldn't mean all that much to him).

What happened on earth wouldn't effect anything but the order in which the names of John Sheridan and Delenn of the Family Mir appeared on the IA's letterhead.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

Re: Consequences for Using Telepaths or Off Scott

These teeps HAD been converted into 'weapons components,' were no longer human, and had no real hope of being human again.

Define the attributes which define a human. I personally find them difficult to define.

Genes? Present. Mind? Present. Fluently operational? No. Capable of becoming operational? Yes. Memories? At least memories of their modification, and the memory that this was *not* meant to be.

One detail depicted in the series... perhaps a detail which gave a stronger impression to me than most others... does not allow me to perceive them that way.

The experiment conducted by Franklin and Lyta strongly suggested... that below the commands of their implants... there still existed quite human personalities.

A weapon... does generally not express disgust at what has been done to make it usable as a weapon. Likewise, a weapon generally has no desire to commit suicide to escape what it has become.

Those were human personalities, who could not be awakened without subjecting them to coercion by their Shadow impants... and they should have been allowed to sleep safely. Either until death, or until someone would learn to cure them.

Success against Earth Force did not depend on them... victory was attainable without them. Only loss would differ... and the only argument I see to defend Sheridan's decision...

...is that many of the crewmembers of Eart Force were not, as you say... quite human either. Many of them were weapons too, although their weaponization had passed differently.

They had not been implanted with Shadowtech... but they had been deprived of objective information, brainwashed and threatened.

However, unlike the modified telepaths, I find them more difficult to pity... because during their brainwashing, they had weapons to defend themselves all around them.

 

[phoenixrising]

I think his new position came as a bit of a suprise to him, although he suspected something

I have to disagree with you. He said they had been setting up the IA for months. He had a pretty good chance of being elected the head of the new alliance; who better to put in charge than the person that saw you through a major war?