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Beyond the Rim
- Thread starter Elizar
- Start date
Most likely beyond the rim is just the space btween galaxies. Less likely, it is a First Ones exclusive disco-bar with swinging chicks and good bloody maries. A happy medium between the two is an entire solar system between galaxies created by the firstones with a planet for each race. There the first ones can finally live in harmony with each other now that there aren't any pesky youngun races to guide.
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If I say I'm a habitual liar am I telling the truth?
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If I say I'm a habitual liar am I telling the truth?
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
Beyond the Rim is simply beyond known space. In case of First Ones who know everything of this galaxy, the rim of known space would be the galactic rim.
As for your second question... I recall a similar expression being used. To pass beyond the Veil? I think this was it... the one used about death. The meaning is equally obscure, but different.
[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 09, 2002).]
As for your second question... I recall a similar expression being used. To pass beyond the Veil? I think this was it... the one used about death. The meaning is equally obscure, but different.
[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 09, 2002).]
well you never know, there could be a connection... after all, there are *hints*, for lack of a better word, that in the b5 universe something does indeed happen after death... weather it be reincarnation for the minbari (and the humans), to the "tunnel" that people who do deathbed scans see... the fact that the people who do deathbed scans are affected at all means something... and then of course theres the soul hunters
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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG
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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>to the "tunnel" that people who do deathbed scans see... the fact that the people who do deathbed scans are affected at all means something... and then of course theres the soul hunters<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
An alternative explanation:
The Soul Hunters only capture a personality. The Minbari are at war with them because they respect anything which has a personality, and consider trapping a sentient personality for eternity a horrible crime.
The Minbari concept of "soul" might actually mean a personality. Consisting of knowledge, principles, beliefs, ideas, memories... this would be the essence, everything which makes us ourselves.
During life, a person picks up bits and pieces of other persons, of the environment around. Learns about his or her background and history, gains memories from others, tries to explain the puzzles of the universe. Chooses which information to seek and which to avoid, which to accept and reject.
Gradually, he or she processes it, creating something original and passing it all back to the world: through choices, words and deeds. Creating the future for new generations of souls, partial reflections of those who were before. Old and still new. This would more-or-less fit the Minbari description of souls.
For a Minbari, a soul might be reborn when these bits get picked up by others and form the foundation of new generations -- similar but always unique. This would also explain why they believe the soul to be both universal and attached to places, usually dwelling within a definite species but sometimes shattering borders.
Thoughts can be understood regardless of species. A sentient being could understand a thought formed by artificial intellect. But there would also be barriers which a "soul" would rarely cross. Shadows would be unlikely to understand the inner world of spoo, but even they would share something on the level of the most simple feelings.
As for what a telepath sees during a deathbed scan... it could be subjective and subject to imagination. The portal which Lyta saw could have simply been a common visualisation for death. Either her visualisation or that of the dying Ranger. It would probably depend on beliefs.
It could just be a failing and disintegrating personality. It might be harmful for another mind to observe. Just as it seems to be harmful to scan a combination of sentient mind and computer (either a Shadow or one of their vessels). And the Brakiri "day of the dead" could have been created by a device which allows one mind to fully imagine and recreate another mind... basing on recorded impressions and behaviour patterns.
But none of these possibilities fit too well. As JMS has said, he likes to leave all doors open, letting everyone draw the conclusions they prefer. To cause speculation and occasional barfights. I guess that is his Shadow side, while the Vorlon side is occupied with withholding plot info.
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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn
[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 09, 2002).]
An alternative explanation:
The Soul Hunters only capture a personality. The Minbari are at war with them because they respect anything which has a personality, and consider trapping a sentient personality for eternity a horrible crime.
The Minbari concept of "soul" might actually mean a personality. Consisting of knowledge, principles, beliefs, ideas, memories... this would be the essence, everything which makes us ourselves.
During life, a person picks up bits and pieces of other persons, of the environment around. Learns about his or her background and history, gains memories from others, tries to explain the puzzles of the universe. Chooses which information to seek and which to avoid, which to accept and reject.
Gradually, he or she processes it, creating something original and passing it all back to the world: through choices, words and deeds. Creating the future for new generations of souls, partial reflections of those who were before. Old and still new. This would more-or-less fit the Minbari description of souls.
For a Minbari, a soul might be reborn when these bits get picked up by others and form the foundation of new generations -- similar but always unique. This would also explain why they believe the soul to be both universal and attached to places, usually dwelling within a definite species but sometimes shattering borders.
Thoughts can be understood regardless of species. A sentient being could understand a thought formed by artificial intellect. But there would also be barriers which a "soul" would rarely cross. Shadows would be unlikely to understand the inner world of spoo, but even they would share something on the level of the most simple feelings.
As for what a telepath sees during a deathbed scan... it could be subjective and subject to imagination. The portal which Lyta saw could have simply been a common visualisation for death. Either her visualisation or that of the dying Ranger. It would probably depend on beliefs.
It could just be a failing and disintegrating personality. It might be harmful for another mind to observe. Just as it seems to be harmful to scan a combination of sentient mind and computer (either a Shadow or one of their vessels). And the Brakiri "day of the dead" could have been created by a device which allows one mind to fully imagine and recreate another mind... basing on recorded impressions and behaviour patterns.
But none of these possibilities fit too well. As JMS has said, he likes to leave all doors open, letting everyone draw the conclusions they prefer. To cause speculation and occasional barfights. I guess that is his Shadow side, while the Vorlon side is occupied with withholding plot info.
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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn
[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 09, 2002).]
M
Mike G
Guest
From the Lurker's Guide:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> The main motive for going beyond the rim...there's a heck of a big Taco Bell out there.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> The main motive for going beyond the rim...there's a heck of a big Taco Bell out there.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I recall someone once saying that the First Ones went to the "Darkness (or Space?) between the galaxies" ... might have been Lorien ... but don't quote me ... I could be daydreaming ...
If the Rim is the edge of our galaxy then B5 must be VERY far from Earth - takes 2 days travel time - because it takes only a few days tops to get to Z'ha'dum and the outter edges of our galaxy are quite far from where we are. I always got the impression B5 wasn't that far away and the Earth Alliance was actually quite small (compared to the galaxy) given it was only a few dozen (at best) star systems. Being a former astronomy major I should know this, but isn't there a real Epsilon Erandi star that's only about 10 light years away?
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If the Rim is the edge of our galaxy then B5 must be VERY far from Earth - takes 2 days travel time - because it takes only a few days tops to get to Z'ha'dum and the outter edges of our galaxy are quite far from where we are. I always got the impression B5 wasn't that far away and the Earth Alliance was actually quite small (compared to the galaxy) given it was only a few dozen (at best) star systems. Being a former astronomy major I should know this, but isn't there a real Epsilon Erandi star that's only about 10 light years away?
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D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
i agree with Lennier, beyond the rim is beyond known space. I forget which ep its in, but a human explorer ship stops at B5 and the captain talks about exploring the rim, or the edge of the known universe to humans.
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D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
Loadhan:
I know. Our astronomical perspectives have got a little skewed in Babylon 5. You could explain it with hyperspace, which doesn't linearly correspond to normal space, but differs according to mass/gravity/other factors.
Besides, names of stars and constellations are sometimes used out of context. The Centauri for example don't live where their name might suggest. They were just believed to live towards that constellation -- and the name became widespread.
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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn
[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 10, 2002).]
I know. Our astronomical perspectives have got a little skewed in Babylon 5. You could explain it with hyperspace, which doesn't linearly correspond to normal space, but differs according to mass/gravity/other factors.
Besides, names of stars and constellations are sometimes used out of context. The Centauri for example don't live where their name might suggest. They were just believed to live towards that constellation -- and the name became widespread.
------------------
"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn
[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 10, 2002).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> f the Rim is the edge of our galaxy then B5 must be VERY far from Earth - takes 2 days travel time - because it takes only a few days tops to get to Z'ha'dum and the outter edges of our galaxy are quite far from where we are. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The last time I looked, a map of our Galaxy shows Earth to be much closer to the rim than to the Center, so it ISN'T that long a trip.
The fact that Z'Ha'Dum might be even Closer to the Rim down't tell us much.
Besides, What G'Kar said about the Location of Z'Ha'Dum was:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> "G'Quan spoke of a great war long ago, against an enemy so terrible it nearly overwhelmed the stars themselves.
G'Quan said that before the enemy was thrown down, it dwelled in a system at the rim of known space.
I searched for days, going from one system to another.
Then, on dark deserted worlds, where there should be no life, where no living thing has walked in over thousand years, something is moving, gathering its forces, quietly, quietly, hoping to go unnoticed.
We must warn the others, Na'Toth.
After a thousand years, the darkness has come again."
G'Kar to Na'Toth in Babylon 5:"Revelations" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The words Rim of Known Space are not the same as Rim of the Galaxy.
A small distinction, but a distinction, never the less.
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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."
The last time I looked, a map of our Galaxy shows Earth to be much closer to the rim than to the Center, so it ISN'T that long a trip.
The fact that Z'Ha'Dum might be even Closer to the Rim down't tell us much.
Besides, What G'Kar said about the Location of Z'Ha'Dum was:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> "G'Quan spoke of a great war long ago, against an enemy so terrible it nearly overwhelmed the stars themselves.
G'Quan said that before the enemy was thrown down, it dwelled in a system at the rim of known space.
I searched for days, going from one system to another.
Then, on dark deserted worlds, where there should be no life, where no living thing has walked in over thousand years, something is moving, gathering its forces, quietly, quietly, hoping to go unnoticed.
We must warn the others, Na'Toth.
After a thousand years, the darkness has come again."
G'Kar to Na'Toth in Babylon 5:"Revelations" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The words Rim of Known Space are not the same as Rim of the Galaxy.
A small distinction, but a distinction, never the less.
------------------
Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Loadhan:
If the Rim is the edge of our galaxy then B5 must be VERY far from Earth - takes 2 days travel time - because it takes only a few days tops to get to Z'ha'dum and the outter edges of our galaxy are quite far from where we are. I always got the impression B5 wasn't that far away and the Earth Alliance was actually quite small (compared to the galaxy) given it was only a few dozen (at best) star systems. Being a former astronomy major I should know this, but isn't there a real Epsilon Erandi star that's only about 10 light years away?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, one thing to keep in mind is that a galaxy is a three dimensional thing...and while the outer edge of the disk might be far away, going straight "up" or "down" will get you out of the galaxy a bit quicker...not to mention, however, that while Z'ha'dum is comparatively close, and probably the Vorlon homeworld, too, that says nothing about the capabilities of the two species. We have both of them close together because they shepherded our species, and as such, we are "geographically" close to them. That doesn't mean that in times of old, their empires spanned half the galaxy...
If I remember correctly, the Vorlon planet killer was readied in some kind of pocket in hyperspace...manipulating hyperspace like that can make for tremendous speeds. If one is able to fold pockets out of hyperspace, what about stretching or contracting it? That would enable them to make distances in hyperspace even shorter than they are for other.
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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?
(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)
If the Rim is the edge of our galaxy then B5 must be VERY far from Earth - takes 2 days travel time - because it takes only a few days tops to get to Z'ha'dum and the outter edges of our galaxy are quite far from where we are. I always got the impression B5 wasn't that far away and the Earth Alliance was actually quite small (compared to the galaxy) given it was only a few dozen (at best) star systems. Being a former astronomy major I should know this, but isn't there a real Epsilon Erandi star that's only about 10 light years away?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, one thing to keep in mind is that a galaxy is a three dimensional thing...and while the outer edge of the disk might be far away, going straight "up" or "down" will get you out of the galaxy a bit quicker...not to mention, however, that while Z'ha'dum is comparatively close, and probably the Vorlon homeworld, too, that says nothing about the capabilities of the two species. We have both of them close together because they shepherded our species, and as such, we are "geographically" close to them. That doesn't mean that in times of old, their empires spanned half the galaxy...
If I remember correctly, the Vorlon planet killer was readied in some kind of pocket in hyperspace...manipulating hyperspace like that can make for tremendous speeds. If one is able to fold pockets out of hyperspace, what about stretching or contracting it? That would enable them to make distances in hyperspace even shorter than they are for other.
------------------
If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?
(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)
