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B5 IS a modern interpretation of Lord of the Rings

Just as I remebered it. I tried to warn them about the pointless speculation... but it happened just as I remembered it.

Regards,
TheInfection

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Things change... long time gone by.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by solaris5:
moria, which i beleive was also called kazadum in a different language, elvish maybe:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, Khaza-dum is in dwaren language. Moria is in elvish
smile.gif




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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lennier:
I could not read the "LotR" books. Fantasy usually disgusts me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would not refer to LOTR so much as fantasy but a work of fiction that is also an interpretation of myths. LOTR (and the other works accompanying it, such as The Silmarillion) draws heavily on world mythology - Norse, Irish, Greek, even more ancient legends and myths of creation.

If you think that 'magic' is what LOTR is all about and therefore refuse to give LOTR a chance, please try and look at it from another point of view. B5 and LOTR are both inspired by the same myths.

Yes, magic is often a part of mythology. Actually, I think magic - or what we understand as magic - is involved in most myths, epics, legends of the world. Is that a reason not to read them?

But there is no more magic in LOTR - actually there is not much actual 'magic' in those books at all, from what I can remember - than there is in B5. Sorry, but even though the magic of Technomages has been given a "scientific" explanation, it's still the same kind of magic that the wizards of LOTR use.

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"There are things out there beyond imagination, and I have a rather healthy imagination." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com | Kribu.net
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Just how heavily was JMS' writing based on Tolkien's? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depends on who you ask. From the quotes I read of JMS, I see the typical "don't be absurd" answer. I pretty much agree with you. I don't think it'd be entirely correct or fair to say that JMS ripped off Tolkien, but LOTR was definitely something more than just mere inspiration to JMS. I've always thought of B5 as a homage to LOTR. There are just too many similarities, in the story and names, for me to say that the two are completely unrelated. Frankly, if someone were to take LOTR, change the setting to the far-flung future and turn it from a novel to a on-going television series, they would probably get sued by JMS for being too much like B5.

As far as Tolkien ripping off from mythology, please. Looking at it that way, every fictional story rips off from mytholgy in some form or fashion. Mythology is a part of us. It's impossible to rip off from one's self. Putting that aside, however, I seriously doubt that you can even name the person who wrote the earliest myths -- and please, don't go to the greek poets because they simply ripped off their myths from earlier cultures and so on.
 
LOTR: Lord Of The Rings, or Legend Of The Rangers?

laugh.gif


Garibaldi may not believe in coincidence, but sometimes, I do.

Joe


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Even if it wasn't based on it, JMS definitely acknoledged the similarity with Lord of the Rings. Take, for example, Ivanova's line from "Hour of the Wolf":

"The Eye is watching us!"

EASILY interpreted as a tribute.

Plus, the Sheridan/Gandalf parallel is rather clear: falling into a deep, bottomless chasm and coming back stronger than ever.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kribu:

But there is no more magic in LOTR - actually there is not much actual 'magic' in those books at all, from what I can remember - than there is in B5. Sorry, but even though the magic of Technomages has been given a "scientific" explanation, it's still the same kind of magic that the wizards of LOTR use.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Actually, I would say even less. Most of the magic we see is much more subtle, with a few exceptions from the evil side.


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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)
 
ummm.....
if he ripped it off, so what, you still loved it(babylon5) right?

if he didn't and they are just alot alike, great, you still loved it(babylon5) right?

crazy.gif


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"I don't want anyone's pity. I don't need anybody's pity. All I know is that I am tired of being controlled. Controlled by others, by fear, by my past, by what everybody else expects of me and it's enough." -Garibaldi-
 
Well, since jms posted Extensively about what his influences WERE for Babylon 5, and that they were NOT "Rings", I'll take his word for it.

JMS got his inspiration from sources Older than Rings.

Rings used a lot of the Same sources.
That's the reaon for the similarity, not some "rip off" or "homage".

JMS was paying Homage to the Original sources, not some Johnny come lately.




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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."
 
All you've managed to do was irritate me, not persuade me. Why? Well, for some reason, maybe including ignorance and definitely including arrogance, I cannot be persuaded of anything, I have to naturally accept it myself by my own free will. Regardless of how many so called facts you throw at me, I could care less. You don't like what I have to say? Fine, I could care less.

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My name: Solaris5....
My mission: to burst the bubble of idiocy that has enveloped everyone and bring common sense back from beyond the rim.
 
Solaris, if you want persuasion check out JMSNEWs

Use the search and you'll find proof that JMS based a lot of B5 on sources much much more ancient thatn LOTR.

Anyway... there are no new stories. Just new combinations. Babylon 5 was an excellent combination, and that's all that matters.

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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it
 
Firstly the shadows/the Enemy similarities. There are none. In the Lord of the Rings, the Enemy are the very embodiment of evil, the Shadows are not evil however. They have a philosphy which I may not agree with, but they do have a convincing argument and they believe they're doing the right thing. Can't imagine Sauron looking out for the (percieved) best interests of Frodo etc. Also, the forces of light, weren't exactly all white. The Vorlons weren't pure and there motivations were as dodgy/justified as the Shadows. If in the LOR Gandalf gave us lots of information and "seemed" like a nice bloke, only to be revealed that he fibbed and that we'd been given a distorted picture of events then that would mirror the Kosh transformation.

The only major parallel is Sheidan falling into the pit at Z'ha'dum and Galdalf falling off the bridge at Khazzadum. The word "Zha" has a meaning in the B5 universe though (I think its either the future or time)so it might have been named as a homage.

Where in LOR do any of the characters travel back in time in order to become a historical leader to another race? Where is there a hobbit civil war where the shire is forced to break away? Where are the evil race of telepaths? Where is the character who is as fundamentally boring and uninvolving as Lochley?

The similarities are on the surface. The reason LOR feels so real is that Tolkien borrowed from the rich tapestry of existing legend. Borrowing the odd name, idea or race from Norse mythology and others. There's familiarity about it. The names and places (the ones he didn't make up) are all based on existing langauges and myths.

jms is as aware of his history as Tolkien, but Tolkien is a writer in stronger shades of black and white. The few similarities that B5 has to LOR are, in many ways a subversion of LOR. We are set up in B5 for a black enemy and we are on the side of light, but we end up being wrong on both counts.

They are similar in this way however... Tolkien wanted to write LOR to be a mythology for Britain, something he believed Britain lacked. jms wanted to do B5 as a mythology for television, something which television lacked. Both were works of ambition and achievement, and extreme inventiveness.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>All you've managed to do was irritate me, not persuade me. Why? Well, for some reason, maybe including ignorance and definitely including arrogance, I cannot be persuaded of anything, I have to naturally accept it myself by my own free will. Regardless of how many so called facts you throw at me, I could care less. You don't like what I have to say? Fine, I could care less.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

how has your argument been any better? you've said, in complete absolute terms, that you are right and everone is wrong. thats not a debate, thats a declaration. if one cant even consider the possibility that one is wrong, whats the point in trying to start a debate?

frankly, you seem to be the most advesarial of all here... instead of stating logical arguments to what people say, you just blanket them all as wrong without a seconds thought. you operate under the assumption, it seems, that you are right and the world is wrong... what if the world is right and you are wrong? if you cant even consider the possibility, then what was the point of this topic anyway?

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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG
 
Thank you, newstarinthesky.

Although I know preciously little about LOTR, your analysis seems to have hit the nail on its head.
smile.gif


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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn
 
Solaris, I don't have any opinion having not read the LotR series.
I'd just like to say, it's nice to see you.


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"Ink on a page!" -Refa describing the moral depths of a treaty.
"Life is life, whether it's wrapped in skin, scales or feathers." -Dr. Franklin
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Arrghman:
what if the world is right and you are wrong?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But that's against the essence of being me. You see, I can't be wrong
smile.gif


Well, hey, look at it this way. I am saying that B5 is based on LOTR. The rest of you point out the parts that are not. I didn't say it WAS LOTR, I said it was based upon it, had similarities. I mean, hey, the Itanium processor was based upon the old card readers, but I can't point out a whole lot of differences.
And I wasn't starting a debate, I was pointing out an interesting fact which people might want to notice.

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My name: Solaris5....
My mission: to burst the bubble of idiocy that has enveloped everyone and bring common sense back from beyond the rim.
 
You know, I try not to get involved in debates with people who announce at the outset that they have closed and bolted their brains and will not let mere facts get in the way of their beliefs, but some of this stuff just pisses me off.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>And I wasn't starting a debate, I was pointing out an interesting fact which people might want to notice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) Your assertion is not a "fact".

2) No matter how many different ways you phrase it, or how willfully you refuse to understand it, you are accusing JMS of the worst crime possible for a writer - stealing the work of another. If you don't think this is serious, ask Stephen Ambrose.

And you have made this accusation with zero actual evidence. You have a handful of story elements common to both works (and to a few thousand others) and one or two deliberate tips of the hat from JMS. Nothing that shows that JMS intentionally copied from Tolkein - anywhere.

You may not understand this, but there is an enormous difference between saying that one work was influenced by another and that it was based on another. A movie may be based on a novel or a play. That means it is an adaptation of an existing work. The film O is based on Shakespeare's Othello - it is indeed a retelling of a classic story in modern idiom.

But Shakespeare wrote before copyright existed as a legal concept, and even if he hadn't, his works would have long-since passed into the public domain. Tolkein's haven't, and JMS knows this. As a professional writer who depends for part of his livelihood on royalties and residuals from his previous work, he would not steal from another writer. He is not a thief. He also isn't stupid, which he'd have to be to attempt such a theft and expect it to pass unnoticed.

Was Lord of the Rings an influence on his approach to epic story-telling? Of course it was, almost unavoidably. LotR revived the whole genre of epic fantasy and influenced generations of writers. But it was no more or less an influence than the Arthur cycle, Shakespeare himself (Lear and MacBeth both inform the character of Londo), Greek mythology (G'Kar as Cassandra, Sheridan as both Orpheus and Agamemnon), and the Lensmen novels of "Doc" Smith.

But these attempts to "prove" that JMS "based" B5 on LotR are both ignorant and insulting. They also miss or paper over the obvious differences. Everybody seems to notice that both Gandalf and Sheridan fell from a great height to their apparent deaths. But they all seem to forget that Gandalf never planned to die in Moria (though he knew there was a risk) and was dragged to his death by his enemy.

Sheridan, by contrast, went to Z'ha'dum on a deliberate suicide mission. While he had to try to resuce Anna (Orpheus in the Underworld) he did not expect to succeed. He expected to die when the White Star and its nukes crashed into the Shadow city. Sheridan jumped into the Pit, at Kosh's urging, because it offered the only, slim, hope of saving his life.

Somebody want to tell me again how these two incidents are "exactly the same"? Sheridan is not Gandalf with the name changed. B5 is not LotR with the serial numbers filed off. It is its own story, and not "based" on anything but JMS's own imagination.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
Hey Joe,

I have seen you post on this particular topic almost every time someone brings it up. Tell me something. Do you have a prepared reply on your computer in MS Word or something you just copy/paste into the forum?
wink.gif


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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Do you have a prepared reply on your computer in MS Word or something you just copy/paste into the forum?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but that's not a bad idea...
smile.gif


Actually, I should do that for a couple of topics. Would do wonders for the ol' carpal tunnel.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 

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