Mr. Bester
Beyond the rim
How can the future that Sinclair sees in B^2 be possible? I mean Valen and the Minbari already existed so everything up to WWE was pre-ordained to happen because of the time loop. Could someone clear this up?
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B^2 future
- Thread starter Mr. Bester
- Start date
He could choose not to go. Remember what Vir said in The Very Long Night of Londo Molari
"prophecy is a guess that comes true. When it doesn't it's a metaphor. You could put a gun to your head tomorrow and pull the trigger and then the dream is just a dream. And the prophecy is just a metaphor."
"prophecy is a guess that comes true. When it doesn't it's a metaphor. You could put a gun to your head tomorrow and pull the trigger and then the dream is just a dream. And the prophecy is just a metaphor."
Mr. Bester
Beyond the rim
But don't you understand if Sinclair didn't go then B5, the Minbari and Anla'shok have existed. The current state with the Shadows defeated in the previous war and order reigning for a thousand or so years was because he went. If he stayed then the future in B^2 would become non-existant since you would have no B5 since Valen/Sinclair wouldn't have won the war and created the Rangers thus Dukhat wouldn't have died and thus no war meaning no B5 station.
And Valen's prophecies weren't guesses he knew what was going to happen because he lived through it including the next coming of the shadows. The whole Valen/Sinclair thing is a darn timeloop like the one in All You Zombies or Time's Arrow which means Sinclair does it because Sinclair saw past/future sinclair do it . Now the prophecy from that lady in signs and portents that was a prophecy.
And Valen's prophecies weren't guesses he knew what was going to happen because he lived through it including the next coming of the shadows. The whole Valen/Sinclair thing is a darn timeloop like the one in All You Zombies or Time's Arrow which means Sinclair does it because Sinclair saw past/future sinclair do it . Now the prophecy from that lady in signs and portents that was a prophecy.
I understand, but he still can choose not to go. It would screw up the "time continueum" to use a trek term. When you mess with time travel you always have to deal with this kind of stuff. What that lady in season one saw and showed sinclair of how b5 being destroyed and also the glimpse of the future in B^2 for sinclair where he is in a gun fight with garibaldi show what would happen if he didn't go back to become valen.
Of course i could be wrong.
Of course i could be wrong.
Nukemall
Regular
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mr. Bester:
<font color=yellow>And Valen's prophecies weren't guesses he knew what was going to happen because he lived through it including the next coming of the shadows. The whole Valen/Sinclair thing is a darn timeloop like the one in All You Zombies or Time's Arrow which means Sinclair does it because Sinclair saw past/future sinclair do it . .</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
IIRC, there weren't too many records existing from the last Great War, so Sinclair would not know exactly what Valen did. The records that were available were only available to the Grey Council. The letter received in WWE probably only told Sinclair what would happen on the mission to steal B4 and his fate as Valen.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr><font color=yellow>Now the prophecy from that lady in signs and portents that was a prophecy</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
To quote Yoda, 'always in motion the future is.'
<font color=yellow>And Valen's prophecies weren't guesses he knew what was going to happen because he lived through it including the next coming of the shadows. The whole Valen/Sinclair thing is a darn timeloop like the one in All You Zombies or Time's Arrow which means Sinclair does it because Sinclair saw past/future sinclair do it . .</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
IIRC, there weren't too many records existing from the last Great War, so Sinclair would not know exactly what Valen did. The records that were available were only available to the Grey Council. The letter received in WWE probably only told Sinclair what would happen on the mission to steal B4 and his fate as Valen.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr><font color=yellow>Now the prophecy from that lady in signs and portents that was a prophecy</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
To quote Yoda, 'always in motion the future is.'
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Nukemall wrote:
...there weren't too many records existing from the last Great War, so Sinclair would not know exactly what Valen did. <hr></blockquote> Zathras is the oldest caretaker of the Great Machine. Knows things which even Draal doesn't know, and went into the past with Sinclair. Valen deliberately erased most information about himself. Sinclair had learned about the details from Zathras. He was sure that if things worked out, the future Zathras would tell his future self...
...there weren't too many records existing from the last Great War, so Sinclair would not know exactly what Valen did. <hr></blockquote> Zathras is the oldest caretaker of the Great Machine. Knows things which even Draal doesn't know, and went into the past with Sinclair. Valen deliberately erased most information about himself. Sinclair had learned about the details from Zathras. He was sure that if things worked out, the future Zathras would tell his future self...
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nukemall:
<font color=yellow>IIRC, there weren't too many records existing from the last Great War, so Sinclair would not know exactly what Valen did. The records that were available were only available to the Grey Council. The letter received in WWE probably only told Sinclair what would happen on the mission to steal B4 and his fate as Valen.
To quote Yoda, 'always in motion the future is.'</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
In the opening of WWE Sinclair is given a letter he wrote to himself that had been entrusted to the Rangers a 1000 years previously for delivery on a certain date. Since this particular record survived, it follows that other Ranger records also survived. From the conversation at that time, I had the impression Sinclair had become Ranger 1 during his time as ambassador to the Minbari, thus would have had access to Ranger records so would know what happened in the first great war and the years in between.
<font color=yellow>IIRC, there weren't too many records existing from the last Great War, so Sinclair would not know exactly what Valen did. The records that were available were only available to the Grey Council. The letter received in WWE probably only told Sinclair what would happen on the mission to steal B4 and his fate as Valen.
To quote Yoda, 'always in motion the future is.'</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
In the opening of WWE Sinclair is given a letter he wrote to himself that had been entrusted to the Rangers a 1000 years previously for delivery on a certain date. Since this particular record survived, it follows that other Ranger records also survived. From the conversation at that time, I had the impression Sinclair had become Ranger 1 during his time as ambassador to the Minbari, thus would have had access to Ranger records so would know what happened in the first great war and the years in between.
Nukemall
Regular
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by gangster:
<font color=yellow>From the conversation at that time, I had the impression Sinclair had become Ranger 1 during his time as ambassador to the Minbari, thus would have had access to Ranger records so would know what happened in the first great war and the years in between.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Indeed, Sinclair became Ranger One and also En'til'zha (incidentally, a Vorlon word). I conceed that that particular record surviving might imply that other records might have survived, but remember that the letter was presented to Sinclair by Rathenn, a member of the Grey Council, so this does not necessarily imply that Sinclair had access to the Ranger archives.
What Sinclair knew about Valen going back in time would depend on what future Sinclair and Zathras (wrt their subjective timelines) would want. Would Sinclair want to know what Valen did, or would he be confident that whatever decision he made was already made (wrt the objective timeline)? Maybe Valen or Zathras deliberately destroyed records except the important ones?
<font color=yellow>From the conversation at that time, I had the impression Sinclair had become Ranger 1 during his time as ambassador to the Minbari, thus would have had access to Ranger records so would know what happened in the first great war and the years in between.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Indeed, Sinclair became Ranger One and also En'til'zha (incidentally, a Vorlon word). I conceed that that particular record surviving might imply that other records might have survived, but remember that the letter was presented to Sinclair by Rathenn, a member of the Grey Council, so this does not necessarily imply that Sinclair had access to the Ranger archives.
What Sinclair knew about Valen going back in time would depend on what future Sinclair and Zathras (wrt their subjective timelines) would want. Would Sinclair want to know what Valen did, or would he be confident that whatever decision he made was already made (wrt the objective timeline)? Maybe Valen or Zathras deliberately destroyed records except the important ones?
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nukemall:
<font color=yellow>Indeed, Sinclair became Ranger One and also En'til'zha (incidentally, a Vorlon word). I conceed that that particular record surviving might imply that other records might have survived, but remember that the letter was presented to Sinclair by Rathenn, a member of the Grey Council, so this does not necessarily imply that Sinclair had access to the Ranger archives.
What Sinclair knew about Valen going back in time would depend on what future Sinclair and Zathras (wrt their subjective timelines) would want. Would Sinclair want to know what Valen did, or would he be confident that whatever decision he made was already made (wrt the objective timeline)? Maybe Valen or Zathras deliberately destroyed records except the important ones?</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
It is logical Sinclair would have had access to Ranger archives as Ranger One, and probably limited access to those of Grey Council archives as well, at least those of the Religious Cast, via his association with them.
Also, I don't think Sinclair suspected/knew he was to become Valen until he read his letter to himself.
As for either Sinclair or Zathras destroying records, no idea but think it unlikely.
<font color=yellow>Indeed, Sinclair became Ranger One and also En'til'zha (incidentally, a Vorlon word). I conceed that that particular record surviving might imply that other records might have survived, but remember that the letter was presented to Sinclair by Rathenn, a member of the Grey Council, so this does not necessarily imply that Sinclair had access to the Ranger archives.
What Sinclair knew about Valen going back in time would depend on what future Sinclair and Zathras (wrt their subjective timelines) would want. Would Sinclair want to know what Valen did, or would he be confident that whatever decision he made was already made (wrt the objective timeline)? Maybe Valen or Zathras deliberately destroyed records except the important ones?</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
It is logical Sinclair would have had access to Ranger archives as Ranger One, and probably limited access to those of Grey Council archives as well, at least those of the Religious Cast, via his association with them.
Also, I don't think Sinclair suspected/knew he was to become Valen until he read his letter to himself.
As for either Sinclair or Zathras destroying records, no idea but think it unlikely.
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
I always thought the prophecy by Lady Morella (I think that's her name) of B5 being destroyed did come true. It was fulfilled in SiL when it was shut down and blown up.
Mr. Bester
Beyond the rim
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jnk5y:
I understand, but he still can choose not to go. It would screw up the "time continueum" to use a trek term. When you mess with time travel you always have to deal with this kind of stuff. What that lady in season one saw and showed sinclair of how b5 being destroyed and also the glimpse of the future in B^2 for sinclair where he is in a gun fight with garibaldi show what would happen if he didn't go back to become valen.
<hr></blockquote>
But how could the apocalyptic future be possible? If Sinclair didn’t become Valen then there wouldn’t be a B5 to destroy nor Sinclair to command it since the war with the Minbari wouldn’t have occurred.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jnk5y:
I always thought the prophecy by Lady Morella (I think that's her name) of B5 being destroyed did come true. It was fulfilled in SiL when it was shut down and blown up. <hr></blockquote>
She saw B5 being destroyed by the Shadows not by Earthforce.
I understand, but he still can choose not to go. It would screw up the "time continueum" to use a trek term. When you mess with time travel you always have to deal with this kind of stuff. What that lady in season one saw and showed sinclair of how b5 being destroyed and also the glimpse of the future in B^2 for sinclair where he is in a gun fight with garibaldi show what would happen if he didn't go back to become valen.
<hr></blockquote>
But how could the apocalyptic future be possible? If Sinclair didn’t become Valen then there wouldn’t be a B5 to destroy nor Sinclair to command it since the war with the Minbari wouldn’t have occurred.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jnk5y:
I always thought the prophecy by Lady Morella (I think that's her name) of B5 being destroyed did come true. It was fulfilled in SiL when it was shut down and blown up. <hr></blockquote>
She saw B5 being destroyed by the Shadows not by Earthforce.
hypatia
Regular
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sky:
<font color=yellow>I always thought the prophecy by Lady Morella (I think that's her name) of B5 being destroyed did come true. It was fulfilled in SiL when it was shut down and blown up.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>I don't think that's possible. Lady Morella saw many, many people dieing, didn't she? That certainly didn't happen when B5 was blown up after it was not needed.
I'm pretty sure it is actually one of the flashes that indicate what would have happened if Sinclair for any reason had not fulfilled his destiny.
I can see how a B5 could still exist if there had not been the Earth/Minbari war. It might have been less controversial and have been B1, that's all! Is it ever stated definitively that B5 was ONLY built because of the war?
<font color=yellow>I always thought the prophecy by Lady Morella (I think that's her name) of B5 being destroyed did come true. It was fulfilled in SiL when it was shut down and blown up.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>I don't think that's possible. Lady Morella saw many, many people dieing, didn't she? That certainly didn't happen when B5 was blown up after it was not needed.
I'm pretty sure it is actually one of the flashes that indicate what would have happened if Sinclair for any reason had not fulfilled his destiny.
I can see how a B5 could still exist if there had not been the Earth/Minbari war. It might have been less controversial and have been B1, that's all! Is it ever stated definitively that B5 was ONLY built because of the war?
A_M_Swallow
Regular
If Babylon 4 had not been stolen then Babylon 5 would not have been made. There would have been no need.
A_M_Swallow
Regular
Yes. The Vorlons took care to organize the Earth/Minbari War. They stopped Vallen from sending a warning to Delenn and ensure that the Grey Council travelled to Z'Ha'Dum.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Valen made sure that no likenesses of him survived, and that few other records did that could change the future. From what I've read one of the comic books makes it clear that Valen himself considered the notion of preventing the E-M War, then decided against it - as the Babylon Project and much else would not have existed.
I think the "possible" future where B5 is attacked and destroyed with Sinclair aboard doesn't quite fit the rest of the story, and is a double-talk way around the fact that the series was originally planned with Sinclair as commander for all five years, and a somewhat different "second half" for "Babylon Squared" envisioned at the start. It is one of the few places where the seams show in JMS's mid-stream editing of his epic. I know I'll get the usual grief about this, with selective quotes from JMS posts and a mistaken analysis of what they mean, but there you have it. It is one of those small inconsistancies (like the fact that the figure in the blue suit who zaps Sinclair in both "B2" and "WWE" clearly isn't someone Delenn's size, although that is supposed to be her according to "WWE") that we just have to accept.
Regards,
Joe
I think the "possible" future where B5 is attacked and destroyed with Sinclair aboard doesn't quite fit the rest of the story, and is a double-talk way around the fact that the series was originally planned with Sinclair as commander for all five years, and a somewhat different "second half" for "Babylon Squared" envisioned at the start. It is one of the few places where the seams show in JMS's mid-stream editing of his epic. I know I'll get the usual grief about this, with selective quotes from JMS posts and a mistaken analysis of what they mean, but there you have it. It is one of those small inconsistancies (like the fact that the figure in the blue suit who zaps Sinclair in both "B2" and "WWE" clearly isn't someone Delenn's size, although that is supposed to be her according to "WWE") that we just have to accept.
Regards,
Joe
A_M_Swallow
Regular
The third "In Valen's Name" comic shows Valen having a telepathic argument with a Vorlon about sending a message to Delenn. The Vorlon won, no message.
All 3 comics were reprinted in the Titan graphic novel.
All 3 comics were reprinted in the Titan graphic novel.
I agree totally with you Joe. That's what happens when you work on a tv series. It also happens when you mess with time travel. There is no easy way to mess with it. I can't help but feel that the line Sinclair says about "it all happend the same as I remember it" is referring to something different than what they showed in WWE. But we've had this conversation before and it always ends up with no answer.
