And now for a Word (most chilling line)

[milosimpkin]

Greetings all, although I am a long time B5 fan I've only started looking at B5 forums, well forum...this one, since Monday. So forgive me please if this post has come up before.

I treated myself to the first two DVD sets on Good Friday and have been rewatching them steadily since. Well i have just finisehd watching 'And now for a Word' as the title might have suggested. And something struck me in the speech from the reporter made just before the final set of questions, and literally made me shiver.

The words:

"And yet growth only comes through pain and struggle."

Very familliar sentiments and I am so cross with myself for not having spotted it before.

 

[Shaal Mayan]

And yet growth only comes through pain and struggle."

I hadn't noticed that line before definately fits with the show B5 and it's ever changing characters.

 

[milosimpkin]

Thanks for the reply Not exactly what I was getting at but still not sure about posting spoilers on here and what the limit is. But again. Thank you.

 

[2aMageing]

The words:

"And yet growth only comes through pain and struggle."

I suppose it is not to far to go to say that it somewhat resembles the Shadow theory on how progress is obtained.

But IMHO, considering Gkars speech at the end of season......2? or is it 3? where he talks of revelation and the future being born in pain, I'd say this other reference to growth coming through "pain and struggle" might more refer to one of the primary series themes that Gkar summed up, rather than a wink to the Shadows philosophy.

Though the meanning behind the phrase is certainly VERY open to interpretation. And I may not even have touched on the view of the quote you may be refering to.

Just my guess, taken for all and all, I suppose.

 

[deaded]

I agree. It does suggest a Shadow influence. Not that those words can be attributed soley to the Shadows and their minion but given the surrounding circumstance I'd say that it's a good pickup. Certainly some at ISN and Earthgov were in cahoots with the Shadows and they may have been spewing rhetoric as thickly as Psi Corps. I've seen the whole series 10-15 times (I'm not really sure how many anymore) and I never picked that up. Maybe I'll watch it again tonight.

But as 2aMageing points out, it could also be an innocent filler statement. Who knows. I doubt it though given the way JMS works. As far as Gkar's speech about the future being born in pain, I would probably also attribute it to his experience more than a Shadow influence. Which is what you are saying I think, 2aMageing.

 

[deaded]

Oh, and welcome milosimpkin! Glad to have you!

 

[milosimpkin]

Thanks for the welcome deaded and, if I might respond in kind, glad to be here.

As I said rewatching the show for the first tim ein a long time. Never owned any of the episodes, so only seen on tv/rounds my friends. But of course I agree it could be a simple filler but, as you said, with JMS at the helm I am tempted to think that _nothing_ is a simple filler line. Of course things can be interpreted other ways. However, watching it again and catching that line made me wonder exactly how much Earthgov knew about the goals of their new allies.

Could analysis of the Mars ship have given them information? And could they be subtely starting to prepare earth to think along those lines. A start of a subtle media campaign to mold Earth's thinking to fit in line with the Shadows.

I certainly enjoy thinking along those lines. I prefer Clarke to have a more grounded knowledge in what they are attempting and thinking that if he can get Earth onside with that then they can come out on top.

It also might have been something told by the Shadows to certin of their allies. It might make sense in that way as well. If they are diametrically opposed ti the Vorlon in ideaology then maybe in attitdue as well. Where the Vorlon keep things hidden and shrouded in enigma the Shadows explain from the outset what they are up to to trusted 'lieutenant's. It also helps toi give another explaination to the way Earth can reconcile a treaty with the Centauri so soon after starting to spout an 'anit-alien' viewpoint. Earthgov have been told the Centauri are a tool of the Shadows.

Would Clarke have ended up with a Keeper too, or was he more hand in hand with them than a tool?

 

[RW7427]

Would Clarke have ended up with a Keeper too, or was he more hand in hand with them than a tool?

Something tells me than Clark would have been just an object for them to use to get what they wanted. After they were done with him, he probably would have met a rather unfortunate demise.

 

[2aMageing]

It is an area of discussion I have not seen much of yet. We know from direct observation that Morden was "around" and had contect with SOMEONE in the psi core chain of command, as well as SOMEONE in a Earthgov intelligence department. And we know that, from a certain after-the-fact overheard message from Morden to Clarke telling him that the power us his now, that Clarke had direct contact with Mr. What Do You Want (MAN that guy got around, appearantly had Earth nailed down before arriving on B5).

And with Justin telling John that the Shadows like Earth and think it could be "riding high" after the "unfortunate" mess is over, it seems perhaps they might have shared the MOST of the plan with Earthgov directly. Though Justin WAS seemingly not a security risk as he seemed to be post-shadow-ship controlled like Anna was. It's hard to be sure how much Clarke was in the loop. And I find it odd that we did not really see or hear of Keepers until the Allies of the Shadows were looking for a little revenge. Perhaps keepers were not in the Shadow plan since they wanted the races to "see it their way" and did not really want ownership of the races. The younger, leftover Allies meanwhile would not be bound by such a "code" of warfare.

But lots of meat to chew on in that part of the B5 Universe, to be sure. And if the message is Shadow related it would certain make a TON of sense that the folks who want to work with the shadows and want to be "riding high", "the FIRST to rebuild", would need to brainwash the public properly for the coming directions and new Zentradi way of life.

 

[RW7427]

And I find it odd that we did not really see or hear of Keepers until the Allies of the Shadows were looking for a little revenge. Perhaps keepers were not in the Shadow plan

Good point. Keepers were like part of the Drakh anyhow. If the Shadows used Keepers, they'd have to do it through the Drakh. That would seem to limit their control over someone like Clark because they would have to do it through the Drakh.

 

[deaded]

~However, watching it again and catching that line made me wonder exactly how much Earthgov knew about the goals of their new allies~

They must have known a great deal at this point because we see in the near future Earthgov ships that clearly use Shadow technology which must have been given to them because they didn't have enough time to analyze the ship on Mars to closely.

~Would Clarke have ended up with a Keeper too, or was he more hand in hand with them than a tool?~

The Shadows were quite adept at converting people to their evolutionary philosophy. Cases in point Morden, Anna, Justin, Londo, Captain Jack, etc... They seemed to have multiple methods of controling people. I'm not sure who warrants a keeper, but I doubt that Clark had one as it would not have let him kill himself imho.

~We know from direct observation that Morden was "around" and had contect with SOMEONE in the psi core chain of command~

That's true but Bester didn't know about the Shadows and he was extremely connected to the Psi Corp in-crowd. I wonder how high this Shadow-Psi Corps association went.

~And with Justin telling John that the Shadows like Earth and think it could be "riding high" after the "unfortunate" mess is over, it seems perhaps they might have shared the MOST of the plan with Earthgov directly~

Yeah, but they promised eveyone the world. I doubt that the Shadows had anything special planned for Earth other than to turn it into another planet of servants. They Shadws call them, "Allies," but they are really just servants.

~And I find it odd that we did not really see or hear of Keepers until the Allies of the Shadows were looking for a little revenge. Perhaps keepers were not in the Shadow plan since they wanted the races to "see it their way" and did not really want ownership of the races~

Keepers were part of the Drakh. The keeper kept the victim and the Drakh kept the keeper (and the Shadows kept the Drakh). But we never saw Drak really until "Into The Fire." IMHO that's because they lived on Z'ha'dum and weren't forced out into the general population until Lyta blew it up.

edit: Yeah, I agree with your point RW7427.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

There was a keeper on Captain Jack so there must have been a Drahk on Mars.

Sheridan talked to Londo about the Drahk being back but I cannot remember if it was before or after the break with Earth.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

I personally think... you are extending speculation too far. Even a person absolutely un-influenced by Shadows... could have easily formulated the same words.

Especially on the background of Babylon 5: a station built after a war, currently sliding into a war. The fifth station in its series... after four previous stations went wrong.

Learning is hard. Jumping over the current bar... is riddled with errors, failures, getting it wrong, having it blow up in your face... and rebuilding it better.

The most memorable method of learning is committing a grievous error. Human kind has committed aplenty, completely without assistance. Nobody needs a Shadow realize that.

 

[KoshFan]

*spoilers for The Shadow Within and the PsiCorps trilogy*





If I recall rightly, Morden was associated with New Technologies Division of EarthForce before he went to Z'ha'dum aboard the Icarus. He may well have been their delegate as part of the investigation of the Mars ship -- he may have even been there at Syria Planum.

Now I may have misremembered that, but if it's true then Morden probably went straight back to Earth, got in touch with his old buddies at New Technologies, and they (so keenly remembering being outclassed by the Minbari during the war) jumped at the chance. The Shadows offered them lots of new tech, and in return a lot of top EarthForce and EarthGov types were quite willing to do some "favors."

Of course the Shadows then had to deal with PsiCorps, who would swiftly detect them. But Clark & Co. had plenty of allies in PsiCorps and an amicable relation was established. However Bester was not always in good odor with the highest minds in PsiCorps -- he was very powerful, very influential, but also very ambitious. He meant to rule the Corps, others didn't like that, and they tried to keep Bester marginalized. Thus when Bester hears his higher-ups have been dealing with "Shadows," he helps B5 as much to strike a blow at his rivals within the Corps as against the Shadows themselves.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

who would swiftly detect them.

I personally doubt if a human telepath could at all detect *them*. Instead it appeared that humanoid telepaths could mess with another humanoid fused into their technology.

There must have been a fair number of telepaths on Babylon 5 (both humans and other species)... and Morden's "associates" must have visited the station multilple times. Yet reports of telepaths having nervous breakdowns after seeing two-meter black bugs... were limited to one occasion with Talia Winters. I therefore supect it was an exception.

-- Possibly because they found something interesting about Talia (Kosh did, after all)... and got too curious about her.

-- Possibly because Talia Winters had abilities which they didn't expect from an everyday human telepath... abilities which permitted her to see more than their everyday camouflage was adjusted to hide.

--------

Certainly, three other persons on Babylon 5... were likewise depicted to have noticed *some* aspect of Shadows.

1) Kosh

Kosh probably saw the most of them -- when it confronted Morden upon his arrival. But options available to Kosh (being a Vorlon, having a starship nearby and encounter suit on the spot) surely outclassed anything available to Human telepaths.

2) Delenn

When Morden asked what she wanted, Delenn probably recognized the intent of his question... but also seemed to receive some warning signal, possibly from an implanted system tuned to detect something related to Shadows.

However, Delenn did not appear to notice anything Shadow-like near him -- just a dark halo around Morden, and we don't know if this was a true visual sensation, or something she imagined (after realizing whom he represented).

Still possibility remains that Delenn *can* see something which multiple others miss... because when later dining with Londo, she appears to *almost* notice the Keeper... or at least provoke it to undertake some evasive measure. (But the Keeper of course, being a Drakh toy... is hardly anything to compare with a real Shadow.)

3) Londo

When Londo argued with Morden, it appeared that Morden's companions were reckless enough to employ a sound-based form of communications. Which Londo possibly heard, but couldn't pinpoint or understand.

 

[Flounder]

*** SPOILERS for the book "The Shadow Within" ***

Though Justin WAS seemingly not a security risk as he seemed to be post-shadow-ship controlled like Anna was.

Or he could be somebody who took the choice to serve rather be put in the ship. Morden chose to serve, though under duress; he was never in a ship.

 

[2aMageing]

I do recall him sorta doing a an odd grimace while saying "you're never quite...........the same" or something like that. If I were to hazard a guess I'd say that was therefor JMS to indicate that he was speaking first hand aboutwhat Anna had gone through.

Then he came back to the moment and finished by saying".......BUT YOU DO WHAT YOU'RE TOLD!!!!"


And as pointed out earlier, I had forgetten that Capt. Jack was an example of keepers in use during the Shadow campaign proper. Though now I am suddenly curious. What was the Shadows interest in having a hand inside the Mars resistance? It seems a minor league group for them to concern themselves with when there were doubtless larger fish to FRY, rather literal pun there. They had Clarke, after a fashion, and Clarke was very close to doing away with the Mars Resistance entirely, according to Number 1.

 

[Demon]

They had Clarke, after a fashion, and Clarke was very close to doing away with the Mars Resistance entirely, according to Number 1.

Which may have been the result of the Clarke regime getting regular information about the resistance from Captain Jack and maybe other members who were controlled by Keepers

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Touche.

 

[2aMageing]

The logical continuation.....very good.

I still wonder why the Shadows bothered with such a smaller entity. Not much of a threat to their plans.......and if anything spread more "chaos" for them. But truely it seems they may have had a hand in their struggles..........along with the Psi Core bloodhound units.