Why was Cusade so hated?

KoshN · Jan 3, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KoshN:
screwed the pooch
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
I like this phrase, can I use it?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Soitenly!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KoshN:
If it (the Crusade music) would have been rap, I could agree with you (that it was horrible).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:

Wow, I wish. As I'm typing this, I'm listening to Gang Starr (yes, there is such a thing as good rap).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, good rap is a contradiction, much like JMS said about white chocolate. It's an abomination.

------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US). http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited January 03, 2002).]

GKarsEye · Jan 3, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> No, good rap is a contradiction, much like JMS said about white chocolate. It's an abomination <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it's nice to see that we're keeping an open mind here, sir.

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

KoshN · Jan 3, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
Well, it's nice to see that we're keeping an open mind here, sir.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, but there are some things I just cannot stand (in no particular order):

1. the thought of TNT ever getting their mitts on Crusade again

2. Rap

3. Crossing Over with John Edward

4. Black Scorpion

5. Wrestling Shows on TV today

6. Rosie O'Oonnell with her mouth open (oops, that's redundant)

7. the sight of Hillary Rodham Clinton or Charles Schumer

8. anything with extreme amounts of bass

9. daytime trash TV (Jerry Springer, etc.)

Usually 2 and 8 go together. If it's around me, I do something to mitigate it's effects, or I walk away.

------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 4, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
Check out Gideon in the black uniform and a pair of shades, a 40 in his hand and a gold tooth, laying down the lyrics:

Gideon, with Excalibur in space
Bustin' in yo face like a can o' mace

No Drakh or aliens can defeat me
I'll bust up yo ass like a PPG

Hangin' in the ship with my Earthforce crew
A five year mission's what we gotta do

See, my homies and my peeps all countin' on us
That mutha-f***in' plague gettin' everyone delirious

With a genius, a teep, a thief that're all able
Technomage Galen get busy with the 'table
Yo kick it, Mage-man

***Camera now moves behind Gideon to show Galen behind the turntables, in his mage robes and hood, with a huge clock around his neck and a backwards baseball cap. His gold capped staff is leaning up against the table.***

wick-wicky-scratch, wop-wop wee doop

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huhuhuhuhuhuh

Thank you, I love a good laugh and I can go happily into the afterlife with that fabulous image of Galen

------------------
TBA

[This message has been edited by Shalinor (edited January 03, 2002).]

GKarsEye · Jan 4, 2002

1. the thought of TNT ever getting their mitts on Crusade again

Oh come on, they only had a few helpful suggestions

2. Rap

Yo, G, get wid it. Don't jivin' on ma groove, man.

3. Crossing Over with John Edward

*sniff* But he helped me talk to me dear departed grandfather. It gave me peace. Why do you have to force me to suspend my disbelief, you horrible, horrible skeptic, you.

4. Black Scorpion

***The mighty GKarsEye is frustrated that he doesn't even know what this is, so he can't be sarcastic about it.***

5. Wrestling Shows on TV today

What is it you don't like about wrestling? The violence, the scantily clad women, or the humurous theatrics? Wrestling rules.

6. Rosie O'Oonnell with her mouth open (oops, that's redundant)

Rosie's a total babe. I pity you if you can't see true beauty.

7. the sight of Hillary Rodham Clinton or Charles Schumer

Ooh, calm down Rush. No need for this sort of political mumbo jumbo. And besides, Hillary's almost as hot as Rosie.

8. anything with extreme amounts of bass

Pff, jive-ass white boy.

9. daytime trash TV (Jerry Springer, etc.)

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry... whoop whoop whoop!

See, you gotta look for the good in things. You should be nice and accepting and sweet, like the mighty GKarsEye.

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

bakana · Jan 4, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
We call ourselves "Blake's Seven" with pride,
(Ch1) Cry confusion, backstabbing, and pluck!
Though Blake has gone and three of us died.
(Ch2) Amateur rebels, relying on luck!

When we first took the prison-ship o'er,
(Ch1)
We could have held it if we'd thought more.
(Ch2)

When the guards caught our friends dead-to-rights,
(Ch1)
We should have cut off their air and their lights.
(Ch2)

When we came on the alien's dock,
(Ch1)
We should have promptly sealed up the lock.
(Ch2)

Once we were free in that big Man-o'-War,
(Ch1)
We should have studied that ship a lot more.
(Ch2)

When we came to our foe's hiding-place,
(Ch1)
We should have stood off and shelled them from space.
(Ch2)

When to destroy their computer we tried,
(Ch1)
We should have recalled that government lied.
(Ch2)

When the invaders' fleet we did find,
(Ch1)
We should have gone 'round them and shot from behind.
(Ch2)

When my friend's arrow was ready to fly,
(Ch1)
I should have shut up and let Servalan die.
(Ch2)

When that I had my foe on her knees,
(Ch1)
I gripped her throat -- why didn't I squeeze?
(Ch2)

When I believed that Blake was alive,
(Ch1)
I should have confided in the other five.
(Ch2)

If he could see the blunders we brave,
(Ch1)
Che' Guevara would spin in his grave.
(Ch2)

The question is not: "Where did we go wrong?"
Cry confusion, backstabbing, and pluck!
The question is How we lasted this long?
Amateur rebels, relying on luck!
Amateur rebels, relying on ...

Luck!

(c) 8/8/86 Leslie Fish and Random Factors <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

------------------
Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

GKarsEye · Jan 4, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>screwed the pooch <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like this phrase, can I use it?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>'soon to be somewhat famous' GKarsEye. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooh, do you know something I don't?
I think my already absurdly swell head would just explode with actual fame.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> If it would have been rap, I could agree with you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, I wish. As I'm typing this, I'm listening to Gang Starr (yes, there is such a thing as good rap). It would be so cool as a background to the Excalibur flying by some planet, like some space hip-hop video. Ooh, then you could have Lochley and Chambers in hot pants and short tops shaking their rumps and being all hoochie-like. Check out Gideon in the black uniform and a pair of shades, a 40 in his hand and a gold tooth, laying down the lyrics:

Gideon, with Excalibur in space
Bustin' in yo face like a can o' mace

No Drakh or aliens can defeat me
I'll bust up yo ass like a PPG

Hangin' in the ship with my Earthforce crew
A five year mission's what we gotta do

See, my homies and my peeps all countin' on us
That mutha-f***in' plague gettin' everyone delirious

With a genius, a teep, a thief that're all able
Technomage Galen get busy with the 'table
Yo kick it, Mage-man

***Camera now moves behind Gideon to show Galen behind the turntables, in his mage robes and hood, with a huge clock around his neck and a backwards baseball cap. His gold capped staff is leaning up against the table.***

wick-wicky-scratch, wop-wop wee doop

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

[This message has been edited by GKarsEye (edited January 03, 2002).]

KoshN · Jan 4, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
1. the thought of TNT ever getting their mitts on Crusade again

Oh come on, they only had a few helpful suggestions

2. Rap

Yo, G, get wid it. Don't jivin' on ma groove, man.

3. Crossing Over with John Edward

*sniff* But he helped me talk to me dear departed grandfather. It gave me peace. Why do you have to force me to suspend my disbelief, you horrible, horrible skeptic, you.

4. Black Scorpion

***The mighty GKarsEye is frustrated that he doesn't even know what this is, so he can't be sarcastic about it.***

5. Wrestling Shows on TV today

What is it you don't like about wrestling? The violence, the scantily clad women, or the humurous theatrics? Wrestling rules.

6. Rosie O'Oonnell with her mouth open (oops, that's redundant)

Rosie's a total babe. I pity you if you can't see true beauty.

7. the sight of Hillary Rodham Clinton or Charles Schumer

Ooh, calm down Rush. No need for this sort of political mumbo jumbo. And besides, Hillary's almost as hot as Rosie.

8. anything with extreme amounts of bass

Pff, jive-ass white boy.

9. daytime trash TV (Jerry Springer, etc.)

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry... whoop whoop whoop!

See, you gotta look for the good in things. You should be nice and accepting and sweet, like the mighty GKarsEye.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. Grr!

2. Where's my 180 out-of-phase noise cancellation device? Ah, here it is.

3. I think there's a "not" missing here.
4. Since, it involves scantily clad women, you'd probably like it. I have to admit, it might not be bad if muted.
5. Stupidity. The dumbing down of America.
6. Sorry, can't get past the screeching voice, back stabbing, the left-wing, hypocrisy, and contradictions.
7. Too much slime & sleaze. BTW, I'm half-way between moderate and conservative.
8. See 2. OK, I'll come to your neighborhood and play the country music from Mars Attacks at the same decibel levels.

9. See 5.

------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

madtrekker · Jan 7, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I didn't like it when Kosh got killed in Interludes and Examinations, but you don't hear me harping on that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It may have been sad to see him leave the show, but he got a great death scene, which makes that episode one of my favourites.

Personally, I find the idea of an unsafe universe where even the characters we like can die to be one of the main attractions of the B5 universe. It makes for more realistic - and more emotional - television.

Chris

KoshN · Jan 7, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by madtrekker:
It may have been sad to see him leave the show, but he got a great death scene, which makes that episode one of my favourites.

Personally, I find the idea of an unsafe universe where even the characters we like can die to be one of the main attractions of the B5 universe. It makes for more realistic - and more emotional - television.

Chris<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, I completely agree. I&E definitely is one of my favorite episodes. I meant that, at the time, I was very sorry to see Kosh go. Still, even back then, I could appreciate what happened. Now, after having seen all of B5, and after reading The Shadow Within, and all of the trilogies (through the first couple chapters of Invoking Darkness), I can appreciate it all the more, because now, I can see more of the big picture.

------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

Jomar · Jan 7, 2002

I didn't "hate" Crusade. However I was very disappointed in the way it turned out. When it was originally mentioned as a possible series around Year 3, the implication was that the actors in B5 would be a part of the new show. When it shifted to an entirely new show at the request of TNT (so that the viewers wouldn't be confused) I found I didn't have much interest in all these new characters. I wanted continuation from B5.

However, I watched and taped and after three viewings I find I am still not excited by the first 13 episodes. I have read the missing scripts and I agree the new direction the show was supposed to take would have put a whole different spin on it. I do think it would have improved by the end of the first year.

I think JMS was not at his best during the writing of the first few scripts. He really needed a year off after finishing B5 and then having to fight TNT every step of the way was really frustrating.

The first time I watch ACtA I really hated Evan Chen's music but the second time around I was prepared for it and liked it much better. I hardly noticed it during the series. However, I do prefer Franke's music and I am looking forward to hearing it again in the Rangers movie.

I just want to end this by saying if Crusade is ever resurrected I hope they start from scratch with or without new actors. That's just my opinion and I know very few people agree with me so please don't start a whole new argument.

------------------
I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Joseph DeMartino · Jan 7, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>When it was originally mentioned as a possible series around Year 3, the implication was that the actors in B5 would be a part of the new show.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you were taking JMS's vague comments about a "possible side story" during S3 and earlier that much to heart, I think the fault lies in your expectations, rather than in Crusade. Even as late as S4 JMS was undecided whether the spin-off would take place during S5 or after it, and which, if any of the original series characters might make the transition to the new show. Certainly he never discussed it as a mere continuation of the original show, and most of his comments made it clear that any characters who did move from one show to the other would be relatively minor ones. (The rumors of Zathras, and Zack, and ultimately Lochley, which turned out to be accurate.)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think JMS was not at his best during the writing of the first few scripts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While one can quibble about "Visitors from Down the Street" ("Humor. It's such a subjective thing") I don't think the rest of the "first few scripts" can be called sub-par. "Racing the Night" was a terrific intro episode, establishing the characters and situation with great economy (we meet most of the regulars and form an impression of them and their relationships in the teaser, for Pete's sake, and we're primed through hints for first appearance of Galen.) "The Long Road", "The Needs of Earth" and, especially "Each Night I Dream of Home" also work very well. And most of the episodes named tie-in more closely to B5 than the remaining 8 shows do.

It is the later scripts (not all of them by JMS) that often don't work as well, and that is largely thanks to the dead hand of TNT. If you want to get a sense of what Crusade was meant to be, watch the five grey uniform episodes of the series, then read the unfilmed scripts. Ignore the black uniform shows entirely. That will show you what was in JMS's head when he sat down to create the series.

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

Demon · Jan 7, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> If you want to get a sense of what Crusade was meant to be, watch the five grey uniform episodes of the series, then read the unfilmed scripts. Ignore the black uniform shows entirely. That will show you what was in JMS's head when he sat down to create the series. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that's a bit too sweeping a dismissal of the black uniform episodes

There are some good parts in many of them, and personally I've always loved Appearances, where JMS pulled together a great story, the actors gave some wonderful performances (particularly as they most have seen the writing on the wall by then) and JMS got some very funny digs in at the suits.

And I loved Kevin and Mr Welles

------------------
Demon

bakana · Jan 8, 2002

I think the funniest thing about Appearances is that the Suits apparently Never Realized they were the butt of the jokes.

Talk about Humor Impaired!

------------------
Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

KoshN · Jan 8, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Demon:
I think that's a bit too sweeping a dismissal of the black uniform episodes

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think of it as more of an endorsement of the gray uniform episodes, than a dismissal of the black uniform episodes. It's a useful exercise and a good idea, if you want to see a more pure vision of what JMS had in mind (if you have a copy of the unfilmed scripts to read).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Demon:
There are some good parts in many of them, ...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed! There are only a few scenes here and there that I don't like at this point in time. Granted, I've watched them all about eight times now (watching the initial airings on TNT and Sci-Fi, watching my tapes and trying to figure out a "correct" airing order, and watching my tapes with friends, introducing them to the series). The advantage of watching them many times is that you catch subtle nuances that are missed on the first viewing. When I first watched them, I didn't care for some of the episodes at all. They seemed empty. However, that was because as the scenes rush by, you miss a lot of the less obvious stuff. On repeated viewings, you catch more and more, little glances, expressions, foreshadowing, and references, that are invisible or not understandable the first time around. This is the "B5 effect", and it rewards those who watch carefully, looking for details, and penalizes those who watch casually, paying less attention, and who have less background.

Crusade was chock full of details. Unfortunately, this makes it take more of an effort to watch and get everything out of it, and lessens it's appeal to those who are not used to watching TV that has more than one or two layers to it.

------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US). http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited January 09, 2002).]

gkarfan · Jan 14, 2002

While I did like Crusade, I have to admit that I am more excited about the possibility of a Rangers series, mostly because SFC isn't trying to downplay the B5 connection the way TNT did with Crusade, and also because SFC is a network that seems to understand SF, while TNT obviously didn't. And hey, G'Kar's in Rangers--what can I say?

Although an appearance by Galen in the Rangers series, if it happens, would be pretty cool, too!

Tammy

------------------

"We're in here! Can anyone hear us?"
"I hear you." [giggle, laugh]
"In here!"
"We are here." [giggle, laugh]
-- Londo and G'Kar in Babylon 5:"Convictions"

Tammy's Station
http://community.webtv.net/gkarfan/TammysStation

KoshN · Jan 14, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by gkarfan:

Although an appearance by Galen in the Rangers series, if it happens, would be pretty cool, too!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be great. We don't know of his activities between 2261 and 2267. His appearances may be limited to electron incantation ones. Still, it'd be better than no Galen at all.

------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

Kribu · Jan 14, 2002

Over the weekend, I watched the two Crusade VHS tapes (four episodes altogether) that I had ordered from Amazon.co.uk - and I found that not only was I right in remembering that I had liked Crusade when I first watched it (a few years ago), I absolutely love that series.

Racing the Night/The Needs of Earth - dare I say that's a better start to a new series than were the first couple of episodes of B5?

I do like Crusade. I went straight back to Amazon and ordered another two tapes... and I expect to put another order in for the rest of them soon.

I specifically paid attention to the music this time around, and no matter what people say, I like the music. I like Chen's Crusade score better than Franke's B5 music, in fact (well, I was never crazy about Franke's score although I won't say anything negative about that).

It's not really even just the potential Crusade had... I like the episodes on their own as well, simple as that. Yes, it's nothing like B5 - but then, I didn't expect it to be. I missed not having some of B5's characters/races around (no Narns!!

) - but the Crusade had a great crew (especially Max!

), so that more than made up for it.

I dunno... I guess it depends on what the viewer expected. I can see that if someone just expected it to be more like B5, then s/he would be disappointed. But if you view it as a separate story, a separate adventure in the B5 universe, then it's great stuff.

------------------
"Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 18, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kribu:
Over the weekend, I watched the two Crusade VHS tapes (four episodes altogether) that I had ordered from Amazon.co.uk - and I found that not only was I right in remembering that I had liked Crusade when I first watched it (a few years ago), I absolutely love that series.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm with you. I liked Crusade when it first aired, but watching it on the SciFi channel has just blown me away. Seeing it in a more reasonable order has helped (although some stuff is still out of order).

Like B5, it grows with rewatching. There is a wealth of detail and a sense of ongoing story there that is easier to pick up when you can watch the episodes sequentially and not a week apart with the order all screwed up.

------------------

Galen2005 · Jan 19, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by AngelSummers:
I still say it is the music that eventually made a lot of people bored with Crusade. TNT interference might have addled the storyline and caused great anger among we fans but still would have bored new fans who knew nothing of the conflict or Babylon 5 for that matter.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even if you knew nothing about the JMS/TNT conflict, you'd still be able to tell that episodes like War Zone just aren't very promising -- no matter WHAT score they had -- and make a decision about the show on that basis.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I would argue the plotline sucks compared to B5 but I now attribute it to TNT interference.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would argue that we don't know enough about the plot make any kind of concrete judgement about what was going to happen. Go back and watch the first 13 eps of B5, and see how much of the plot you know-- that wouldn't even get you to Signs and Portents.

-g

------------------

Why was Cusade so hated?

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