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WB cancels Angel
- Thread starter Glacophane
- Start date
KoshFan
Regular
Well, perhaps you guys are right and the Buffyverse's plotlines are silly. But you know what? The dialogue is still good. I still care about the characters, rejoicing for them when good stuff happens and feeling bad for them when bad stuff happens instead. And Sarah Michelle Gellar is still very attractive. End result: I love the show, and I'll keep watching it.
For continuity, superb plot craft, and high drama, I have B5. For pure emotion, Buffy can't be beat.
For continuity, superb plot craft, and high drama, I have B5. For pure emotion, Buffy can't be beat.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
The difference between Buffy's or Sheridan's return from the dead is that it was done to advance the plot; their deaths and return from death changed them as characters. Spike's return from the dead was about transfering fans from one show to another and Spike acted as if his incineration was nothing more to get over than a broken leg. Maybe Spike's "sacrifice" at the end of Buffy wouldn't feel so empty if it hadn't been brought about as a deus ex machina to defeat the Turok-Han army.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
We were told that The First had a plan and that that plan involved the obliteration of the Slayer line. Beljox's Eye told Giles and Anya that Buffy's death and being brought back to life is what was enabling The First to inact this plan now. This point was never touched on again. We were never told how exactly The First was planning to destroy the Slayer line beyond 1. Kill the Potentials. 2. Kill Faith. 3. Kill Buffy.
Buffy and her gang said several times that Buffy's death would activate another slayer, however she died at the end of season five and hadn't wondered where the Slayer activated by that was. She flatlined from the bulletwound and was revived by Willow at the end of season six, but there was no consideration as to the calling of another Slayer because of that. Of course, the concensus I've heard from most was that Buffy's death could only activate one Slayer and that that was Kendra, who's death activated Faith. And it would be only Faith who could activate the next Slayer as Buffy's having already done that used up her ability to do so. But that the characters on the show said one thing and the information we were getting from Joss about it said another was never addressed.
Joyce appeared to Dawn to warn Dawn that "in the end when things get dark, Buffy won't choose [her], she'll be against [her]." This was never developed. Sure, some claime it was nothing but The First having fun with Dawn, but there it was too heavy of a warning for it have been. Either way, even if it was The First pretending to be Joyce, there was no followthrough with it. And Xander's chloroforming Dawn at Buffy's request is too weak of an action for Joyce to feel the need to fight against The First to warn Dawn about it.
Spike's being a sleeper agent of The First just suddenly became meaningless. The First was getting Spike past the effects of his chip in order to kill people and turn them into vampires. Why? The First actually told the group that it wasn't done with Spike at one point, but NOTHING came of it saying that.
Willow had a very short grieving period after Tara's death before she hooked up with another girl. I just don't think that watching one's lover be shot and bleed to death and going on a homocidal rampage eventually leading to a plan to obliterate the entire planet would be something a person would get over quite so easily.
Xander get his eye poked out, but Willow never attempts to heal his eye with magic? At the end of season six, even though she's gone mad over Tara being shot, Willow still was able to use magic to remove the bullet from Buffy's chest, regenerate her chest and heart tissue, and restart Buffy's heart with magic. Willow was able to heal herself from being eaten on by Gnarl. But she never tried healing Xander's eye? Willow was shown throughout the final season of Buffy as being afraid of using her magic. However, she wasn't anywhere near as afraid of her magic in the episode she did on Angel the same year when she went up against EvilCordy.
Two deus ex machina were employed to resolve the battle against The First and it's army of Turok-Han: the Scythe (which wasn't actually a Scythe if you know weapons) and the Amulet that Angel was given by Wolfram & Hart and gave to Buffy. Having one is acceptible, two is pushing it. When two are needed to clean up the plot resolution, it begins to seem as if the writers either ran out of time to tell their story and were unable to tie up all their setup they put in earlier in the season, or they just couldn't think of how to resolve the plot through actual character action.
Now, I still enjoy most of the final season of Buffy, but there are some definite weaknesses in the plot and lack of followthrough and resolution that I recognize as being there.
Ninja_Squirrel
Regular
VacantLook, you make a lot of good points, several of which I've thought of myself before, including the Beljox Eye comment, the Joyce prediction, and especially the situation with Xander's eye.
The one about Xander's eye really bugs me. It was not handled as dramatically or as sympathetically as the loss of G'Kar's eye in B5. It seemed to be done just for shock value. I don't see why Willow couldn't have helped him regenerate a new eye, even if it took a while. And the event really didn't change his character much, so it was really just a wasted moment of gore.
I thought season 7 was especially weak in a lot of ways. There were some decent ideas, but they weren't carried out quite right. I can't help but wonder if it had something to do with the questionable possibility of an eighth season and/or Joss Whedon dividing his time developing Firefly.
Also, I think you're right about Buffy's subsequent death(s) not activating the next Slayer(s). I could have sworn I read a comment from a Joss Whedon interview in which he clearly stated that the Slayer line had shifted completely over to Faith. Despite that, I think there was still a time or two in the last two seasons in which someone referred to Buffy's *next* death as being the event that would call the next Slayer.
To muddy things up more, they never do explain how it is they find potential slayers. Unless Kendra was trained very, very quickly between the season 1 finale and her season 2 debut, I got the impression she was trained as a potential for quite some time. However, all the potentials in season 7 seem to be pretty clueless about slayerhood, which also makes it seem that much stranger that the Scoobies were able to convince so many of them to come to Sunnydale to learn about slayerhood when they wouldn't have been aware of things well beforehand.
I thought season 6 was weaker too, so in a way, Buffy ends at season 5 for me. In fact, I don't think I'll get the last two seasons on DVD. As far as I'm concerned, the story of Buffy ended when she sacrificed herself to close Glory's portal.
The one about Xander's eye really bugs me. It was not handled as dramatically or as sympathetically as the loss of G'Kar's eye in B5. It seemed to be done just for shock value. I don't see why Willow couldn't have helped him regenerate a new eye, even if it took a while. And the event really didn't change his character much, so it was really just a wasted moment of gore.
I thought season 7 was especially weak in a lot of ways. There were some decent ideas, but they weren't carried out quite right. I can't help but wonder if it had something to do with the questionable possibility of an eighth season and/or Joss Whedon dividing his time developing Firefly.
Also, I think you're right about Buffy's subsequent death(s) not activating the next Slayer(s). I could have sworn I read a comment from a Joss Whedon interview in which he clearly stated that the Slayer line had shifted completely over to Faith. Despite that, I think there was still a time or two in the last two seasons in which someone referred to Buffy's *next* death as being the event that would call the next Slayer.
To muddy things up more, they never do explain how it is they find potential slayers. Unless Kendra was trained very, very quickly between the season 1 finale and her season 2 debut, I got the impression she was trained as a potential for quite some time. However, all the potentials in season 7 seem to be pretty clueless about slayerhood, which also makes it seem that much stranger that the Scoobies were able to convince so many of them to come to Sunnydale to learn about slayerhood when they wouldn't have been aware of things well beforehand.
I thought season 6 was weaker too, so in a way, Buffy ends at season 5 for me. In fact, I don't think I'll get the last two seasons on DVD. As far as I'm concerned, the story of Buffy ended when she sacrificed herself to close Glory's portal.
*high fives* Yep, same here. THe end of season five was absolute perfection... then they dragged it back for two years. I think Buffy the show itself was the dead body brought back to life, and came back wrong.
Plus Joss's writing... I remembe when his episodes were special. Great. They stood out amongst all the rest. Towards the end... he was down to smut and cheap laughs.
Just look at Faith in season four of Angel. Then look at Faith in season seven of Buffy. See how a character is well written, then badly written.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
I agree. You can see a stark difference in the writing of the same character on the two shows in Willow as well. Throughout the final season of Buffy, Willow was undeniably hesitant to use magic out of fear of losing herself to it very easily and quickly again. However, in her crossover episode on Angel, Willow, though acknowledging her abuse of magic to Wesley, handled herself and her magical abilities with great skill and ease of use. They needed her to reensoul Angel, and she did so without going, I don't know I might become evil again. In fact, the situation she encountered against the disembodied EvilCordy while trying to shatter the jar that contained Angel's soul revealed that she saw the situation that was more important beyond her own personal fears. However, as soon as Willow returned to Sunnydale in the next episode of Buffy, she was back to being the exact way she had been before she left. What was it about being in LA that caused her to behave so differently? Indeed, I think it was the different show's writers!
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Despite having only recently watched Firefly for the first time and coming to dearly love the show, the thought has also recently hit me that perhaps the weakness of the seventh season of Buffy was due to Joss focusing his attentions on developing Firefly.
There wasn't much time spent examining how the Potentials had been dealt with by the Watchers Council prior to their coming to Sunnydale. As I understand it for Kendra, her parents viewed the life of the Slayer to be so important that they encouraged her development in Slayer-skills by literally giving her to her Watcher. But that certainly couldn't have been said for every Potential that showed up in Sunnydale in season seven. Did Buffy ever have any encounters with a Watcher prior to her being activated as a full Slayer when she was still in LA prior to the show beginning? It certainly doesn't seem so based on the flashback scene we've seen of Buffy meeting her first Watcher in the second season. So then, are only some Potentials in contact with Watchers while others are not? How do the Watchers go about locating Potentials? How do they locate full Slayers once one is activated? Once the Watchers Council was destroyed in England, who assumed command over the rest of the Watchers in the world? Giles? He always seemed to be acting outside of the workings of the Watchers Council in the final season. Why did only Potentials show up in Sunnydale? Why not other remaining Watchers in the world come as well? They would have been valuable assets to help train the Potentials. There was just so much information not explored.
After seeing the great deal of advanced planning that went into season five of Buffy (my personal favorite season; I do love me some sweeping story arcs!), it felt as if no where near as much effort went into the planning of season seven. It had vast potential to have an epic arc, and I guess technically did have an epic arc, it just wasn't realized in a tightly constructed manner. To me, the seventh season story arc is best defined by the word "potential." Unlike all the Potentials in the seventh season though, the plot was not fully activated.
One thing I have always been interested that was never mentioned throughout the entire show, who was the Slayer before Buffy was called and how did she die, thus activating Buffy?
I think I can kinda help you with that one. I once picked up a Buffy paperback at a bookstore in which Buffy found out more about the Slayer before her, if I remember the backcover correct, she even gets to communicate with the spirit of the previous slayer.
I don't remember the title, but if you're interested in that story, you should be able look it up.
No, not silly and not the whole universe. The last season or two the writting was sloppy. There was good stuff within it but as others have pointed out they didn't seem to be paying attention to what they themselves had been writting episode to episode or in some cases moment to moment.
phoenixrising
Regular
Angel never "died" strictly speaking. At the end of the second season, Buffy shoved a sword through him (not killing him as only wood works that way) and sent him to hell through a dimensional gateway, not by dying. Angel only died once, when he was vamped by Darla.
It has been noted many times that the Slayer line now runs through Faith. Buffy dying would have no effect on the Slayer line anymore.
The only thing I hope is that they have a kick-ass ending that ties up everything in the Buffy/Angel universe once and for all. That is an ending all us fans deserve.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Which I actually said I knew in the paragraph of mine quoted; however, the characters in the seventh season of Buffy spoke as if things worked otherwise. The dissonance caused by being told things worked one way by Joss and being told they worked another way by the characters in the show was not resolved.
vacantlook, I think they got themselves into a bit of a corner. Faith is "the" Slayer... but when it came to the seventh season, they didn't seem to want to undermine her, and it was all about her getting the trainees going.
Many times I felt like reminding them all that, no, Buffy isn't actually the Slayer.
Many times I felt like reminding them all that, no, Buffy isn't actually the Slayer.
KoshFan
Regular
We probably won't get that, but I'm hoping we get a solid ending. There have been so many loose ends over the years that tying up everything would mean a three-hour finale, filled mostly with trivia. But a solid ending that resolves the big stuff satisfactorily... that we can hope for.
I haven't seen S7 yet, but it's been known for years that Faith's the one who triggers the next slayer. Buffy, as always, is the exception to the rule.
Known? Known how? The whole 'Buffy died in season 5 but a new slayer was never activated' thing has BUGGED THE HELL OUT OF ME the last two seasons of Buffy. They simply NEVER addressed the issue in the show. But from reading this thread, I understand that it was 'known' because Joss Whedon said so in interviews.
What I don't get is, why didn't Joss resolve this pretty hefty gap in the plot ON SCREEN??? All he had to do is write one lousy line that goes: Faith's the one who triggers the next slayer
But anyways, to get back on topic, in a way I'm glad Angel is coming to an end. I kept watching Buffy these last years, but it wasn't the same as it was in seasons 1 thru 3. At least Angel ends without having gotten stale.
Since this is an open thread about Angel I'll mention this here: this week's episode was great. Evil muppets sitting around a board table, smoking, drinking, and torturing their creator while discussing stealing the souls of children. Laughed my but off.
This was especially poignant since I just got something from my alma mater announcing the unveiling of a bronze statue of Jim Henson and Kermit. It was a class gift from before I went to U Maryland and they've got it up now about two years after I graduated. I hope Kermmy was a little kinder than the puppets from the show.
This was especially poignant since I just got something from my alma mater announcing the unveiling of a bronze statue of Jim Henson and Kermit. It was a class gift from before I went to U Maryland and they've got it up now about two years after I graduated. I hope Kermmy was a little kinder than the puppets from the show.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
I thought "Smile Time" was hillarious! "I'm gonna tear you a new puppet-hole bitch!" Hee hee hee! Puppet Angel was so cute walking around all cutely sad and frumpy and the way he superhugged Fred was so adorable. The stuff with the werewolf girl felt thrown in, not really calculated into the story and Fred's reinterest in Wes felt like I was missing something, but for the most part, I loved the episode.
KoshFan
Regular
I missed "Smile Time" and somewhat regret it, but I'm sure I'll see it eventually.
Tell you something, even if the show went downhill (a point I dispute), the acting has been phenomenal from first to last. Even if the plots aren't great I'll watch just to see what Gellar, Boreanaz, and the rest can do with the material. Eliza Dushku can be astonishingly good sometimes.
Tell you something, even if the show went downhill (a point I dispute), the acting has been phenomenal from first to last. Even if the plots aren't great I'll watch just to see what Gellar, Boreanaz, and the rest can do with the material. Eliza Dushku can be astonishingly good sometimes.
