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SFX for B5lr: Worries and questions

Emfeeli

Regular
Legend of the Rangers= more action scenes= more sfx. This worries me. If Netter Digital was at the helm I wouldn't be concerned...but it isn't (heard it went under--any details?). I found the sfx in Crusade to be inferior to B5's 5th season, and I read that it was more expensive to produce. Entertainment Weekly also bashed Crusade for its "behind-the-times" sfx. I'm guessing that the battle-scenes in B5lr will be massive-- containing the huge ammount of ships that we have come to expect in the B5 universe. I just hope that the new produciton team can handle the load, considering Stargate SG-1 does not have such extensive and complicated scenes. The down-graded effects in Crusade gave it a bad name...at least from mainstream writers. Lets hope B5lr can live up to its action-packed base with some great sfx. I have faith.
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"There is no memory with less satisfaction in it than the memory of some temptation we resisted."
-Harlan Ellison quoting James Branch Cabell
 
I wouldn't be very concerned:

- SG1 did have some pretty complicated scenes.

- If I recall correctly, Slade (he works in the company doig the FX) mentioned it had gone well.

- So did the actors (and numorous others) who had the chance to view the almost-complete cut.

Besides, you can always add processing power if you need to do something more difficult with SFX. What I worry about is the storyline and how the show will be advertised/distributed... but not the effects.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited September 09, 2001).]
 
I doubt that JMS would bring a terrible FX company on to do the post production stuff so no worries here.
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No one here is exactly what he appears.
Babylon 5
G'Kar - Andreas Katsulas
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>If Netter Digital was at the helm I wouldn't be concerned... but it isn't (heard it went under--any details?). I found the sfx in Crusade to be inferior to B5's 5th season, and I read that it was more expensive to produce.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The FX for Crusade were done by Netter Digital, so I don't see why you are "worried" that a new company is handling them for Rangers.
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Crusade did a lot more of a different kind of FX work - virtual enviroments because they were going from planet to planet - than what B5 did. These are tricky to pull off on a TV budget. I don't recall them looking terribly different than say, Minbar, CP or the Drazi homeworld on B5.

And I don't recall the space shots looking noticably inferior. As for Entertainment Weekly, they are notorious for reviews that have little to do with reality, so I'm not sure I'd put much stock in what one of their writers had to say in one article. Unless you have other examples to cite, this is hardly evidence that the "mainstream press" in general had bad things to say about Crusade's FX.

I did read somewhere that N.D. changed their primary CGI software right around the start of Crusade and that there may have been a bit of a learning curve that resulted in poorer CGI in some of the early episodes, but I'm not sure how accruate that report was.

And while Crusade may have had a bigger budget, we can't assume that the difference went to the visual effects department. Coming off of B5 JMS and Netter may have negotiated higher producing fees, the switch back to a longer shooting schedule probably increased costs somewhat, and it is quite possible that Gary Cole commanded a higher salary than even Bruce Boxleitner, since he is arguably better-known thanks to things like The Brady Bunch.

It is true that Netter Digital is no more. They weren't able to get enough work after Crusade folded to keep going. But JMS may still have gone with another FX house unless N.D. was willing to open a branch-office in Vancouver. It is often important to have visual FX people on-set when a show is being shot, as well as during pre- and post-prouduction, so it is hard to see how they could be done by any company in Los Angeles.

Also I don't know why JMS's statement that Rangers would be more of an action/adventure series with dramatic elements than a dramatic series with action/adventure elements (as B5 was) makes you assume that he means "more and bigger space battles." (For that matter I'm not sure why everyone who misquotes that statement focuses on the word "action" and ignores the "adventure" part.)

In terms of TV shows Law & Order, E.R. and The West Wing are all dramas. The A-Team, Magnum, P.I., and The Invisible Man are all "action adventure." So was Star Trek: TOS. Trek was not noted for battles between huge fleets of spacecraft. Most of the "action" consisted of fist-fights between Kirk and the guest-villain.
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"Adventure" can consist of nothing more than putting your heroes in dangerous and exotic locales or situations. A story where your series leads are trapped by a blizzard is an adventure story where there is no one to fight. One where they have to cross dangerous mountain or jungle terrain while trying to deliver badly-needed medical suplies is an adventure episode, too.

In fact, a lot of shows aren't purely drama or "action/adventure." Law & Order has the odd fist-fight or shoot-out. Trek did character studies and more purely dramatic stories. It is often a balance. But the focus of the two types of shows tends to be different. While Magnum, P.I. did some pretty heavy dramatic episodes, for the most part it was a light romp with lots of chases, colorful characters and sometimes things getting blowed up real good.

B5 also had plenty of action (and adventure - the two are not synonymous) along with the drama. All JMS is talking about, after 5 years of often bleak, heavy, depressing agnst, is doing a show that is a little more light-hearted, and which leans towards the "caper" aspect that makes shows like M:I and Magnum so much fun.

Neither "action" nor "action/adventure" implies huge anything. It just means that the characters are put in physical jeopardy a lot. Mission: Impossible was an action/adventure show. It did not feature huge tank battles, fleets of warships or air-strikes. It featured a small team of operatives working behind the lines to underimine political enemies and criminal organizations. This is a lot closer to what JMS has described Rangers as being than the kind of show you're worried about.

So even if there were some kind of "problem" with the EFX, I don't think there is any reason to assume that it would have much impact on the show, because I don't think we're going to see any big "Into the Fire"-type "action."

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net

[This message has been edited by Joseph DeMartino (edited September 09, 2001).]
 
Check out there website and see how many shows and movies they've done. I think LotR is gonna kick ass.
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GVFX

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by War-Demon:
I think LotR is gonna kick ass.
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<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well I don't think there is much to worry about if that is the guality of work they do. Thanks for the link!!


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The avalance has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.
 
When I glanced at the title of this thread I read it as SEX for B5LR
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It might have been a more useful discussion.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>It might have been a more useful discussion.
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<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or at least a more entertaining one.
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Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> I found the sfx in Crusade to be inferior to B5's 5th season, and I read that it was more expensive to produce. Entertainment Weekly also bashed Crusade for its "behind-the-times" sfx. I'm guessing that the battle-scenes in B5lr will be massive-- containing the huge ammount of ships that we have come to expect in the B5 universe. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> 4 Feb 1997
We use the Hubble images (provided by them) a lot on the show, including these current couple of episodes. We digitize them, then enhance them into 3D. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, you found the Hubble images inferior??

And what huge amount of ships?
More than a few dozen ships at a time, the images turn into such blurry little dots they might be a cloud of Lint.
By showing the same images several times and varying their positions on the screen, they can fool you into thinking you've seen a Lot more ships than you did.

The brain fills in a lot in such fast paced scenes.
That's part of why they ARE fast paced.
Besides, once you've seen a few explosions, they get boring.
So, you go back to the Story on board the ship where the People are.



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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
 
Bakana is right to an exent here, many of the fleet sequences were done with a few models, and cgi movement in the background. The camera was always moving, giving added excitement to the shots. Early in the series, (and some of my favorite CGI) used less ships, more detail, very realistic movement for space. (The raiders getting busted by Sinclair... very real). The 5th season was very good, again showing things that were never explored in sci-fi, (Londo looking up as the fleet arrived, seeing the jump points openning), loved it. JMS's ideas for CGI shots are 3/4 of the shot!!!

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Thanks guys. You have effectively qualmed any remaining worries I might have had. Sorry about the "boring" topic, but Crusades' CGI dissapointed me(might have had something to do with the score as well). Thanks for the link! I had also assumed that there might be large sequences like in Into the Fire or Shadows Dancing, but I guess that was miss-guided. Sorry.

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"There is no memory with less satisfaction in it than the memory of some temptation we resisted."
-Harlan Ellison quoting James Branch Cabell
 
There is no doubt in my mind that GVFX will make the best FX for B5 ever. B5 nearly almost lacked the realistic touch and GVFXhas it. I for one can't wait to see what they've done.

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Thomas Banner
Diverse 3D
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Banner:
B5 nearly almost lacked the realistic touch and GVFXhas it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>B5's CGI style was never supposed to look realistic, since they didn't have the tech to pull it off at the time the show was getting started. Instead they went for a stylized colourfull "shiny" look, and I belive Slade noted that GVFX will be sticking with it for Rangers too. I'm happy that they did, and am far more interested in fluid animation and well compsited shots (and I felt Netter Digital was slipping with the latter).

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> But the graphics look so darn crisp!

Just a note...re: the CGI looking crisp and unblurred...the blurring you're used to seeing is an artifact of atmosphere. There is no air in space. and thus no blurring. (Check the latest NASA footage for more on this.) That's of course why they put Hubble in space, to avoid the problems of blurring caused by atmosphere.

We probably could've put in atmospheric blurring to give it a different depth-of-field, but we have this bugaboo about being a -science- fiction show....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


B5 always tried to be as Accurate as Possible, given the limitations of Television.

A LOT of people complained because the More Realistic CGI didn't look like the Preconceptions they'd gotten from watching Other shows that used physical models.

It's amazing how many people think that, because they Like the look of another show, it must be more "realistic" when in fact it's a plastic model being moved around on wires.


BTW, piece of TOS Trek Trivia. After a certain point in the later TOS shows, all the "exterior" shots of the Enterprise were from the same side.

The Model had gotten damaged on one side and the producers didn't have any spare money in the budget to repair it. So they only used the "good" side from that point on.



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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Bakana is right to an exent here, many of the fleet sequences were done with a few models, and cgi movement in the background.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to claify something for those who don't know the technical stuff - there are no physical models used in any of B5's exterior shots. The station and the ships are all 3D "models" built inside the computer.

And they did actually put lots of these ship models on-screen all at once:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Actually, I think we broke [the Return of the Jedi] record for ships on-screen in the pilot; Ron was rather pleased about it at the time. -- jms<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Into the Fire" and In the Beginning also had lots of ships on-screen at one time. But I still don't think we'll see anything on that scale (as least not very often) in a Rangers series because it doesn't take place during a major war.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> and it is quite possible that Gary Cole commanded a higher salary than even Bruce Boxleitner, since he is arguably better-known thanks to things like The Brady Bunch. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, call me slow, but....WHAT?

PS - I am not concerned about the SFX. There has been plenty of time between the end of Crusade and now, that each series has been evaluated, reviewed, and picked apart for the good and the bad. JMS & crew would be sure not to repeat what doesn't work (also no TNT interference).

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Ok, call me slow, but....WHAT?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, assuming the "Brady Bunch" part is what has you confused: Gary Cole played Mike Brady in two feature films based on the old Brady Bunch TV series. (In between the two films he did American Gothic which much have been quite a change of pace.) With two successful feature films behind him it does seem possible that his asking price was higher than most of the other actors.

(I never saw it, but the $12 million Brady Bunch Movie took in $17 million in its first week in theaters, in February of 1995. It beat out Forest Gump, Pulp Fiction, Legends of the Fall and Dumb & Dumber. It was still in theaters in June, when serveral of those other films were long since gone from the top-grossing films list - or from theaters entirely. It ended up grossing something over $50 million in U.S. theaters alone.)

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
Is this TITLE suppose to say

SFX for B5lr: Worries and questions

or is it suppose to be

SEX for B5lr: Worries and questions

looks like a typo to me...
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War doesn't determine who is right, just who is left.

[This message has been edited by sassy (edited September 13, 2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
SEX for B5lr: Worries and questions

looks like a typo to me...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol Sassy. There is nothing like the old jokes.

SFX = Special Effects


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Andrew Swallow
 
******Pausing this thread for a moment of clarity*********

lol@Andrew!

although

SFX = special effects

now correct me if I am wrong...but isn't

SEX = special effects

too???

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i am going to shut up now before the NBS is unleached on me!!
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******This has been a Sassy break. We will continue with the regular scheduled program*******

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War doesn't determine who is right, just who is left.
 

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