rangers series: odds of seeing vorlons or shadows again?

[Jomar]

I've just been reading another board where people are tearing out their hair because some characters have departed and I wonder why people are so keen to bring back these characters from the past. If a TV show has been interesting enough to hold your attention for several years why not look forward to changes wrought by the writers for future episodes.

I agree with Joe, there will be no more Vorlons or Shadows, but I am positive there will be other strange and interesting characters, especially if JMS is in control of the movie or series.

------------------

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>How do we know that the other First Ones didn't have their own followers, who we just haven't seen yet? They could be out there somewhere, beyond the ISA's borders, just waiting to run into the Rangers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Vorlons and Shadows were unique among the First Ones in that they directly interacted with the younger races. That was the job they took on, to lead them. When their differing philosophies led to a series of wars-by-proxy, they were sometimes able to draw in others of the First Ones, but the vast majority of these beings left before the Shadows and Vorlons became "guardians" of the younger races. (Lorien says that they "stayed behind" when the bulk of the First Ones left.)

The few individuals among the other First Ones who stayed behind have kept to themselves in the intervening centuries, again according to Lorien. Delenn says that the last time the First Ones "walked openly among the younger races" was 10,000 years ago. G'Kar tells Catherine Sakai that we are to the Walkers at Sigma 957 as ants are to us, and that they'd have as much to say to us we would to ants.

None of this makes me think that the other "First Ones" had any kind of followers among the Younger Races, or even took notice of them except when the Vorlons and Shadows were throwing one of their periodic wars. So I doubt that this will be a plot element in the new show. Again, JMS's point in B5 seems to have been that the Younger Races are now all alone in the Galaxy and it is time for us to make our own mistakes. ("What the show is about is killing your parents.")

I doubt he'll keep pulling us back to the notion of the First Ones beyond the remaining influence of the only two races that ever had much to do with the Younger Ones.

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

 

[bakana]

JMS has stated very emphatically that the First Ones are _Gone_, All of them. And they ain't coming back.

There are lots of other problems running around the galaxy. Particularly since so many govts are in deep doo doo for having tried to ally with the Shadows. The rangers will be dealing with worlds that got bombed, beaten, blasted by civil war and in general kicked over like an anthill. IOW, a large part of their baliwick is going to be in chaos for years to come. Chaos means taht people will try to take advantage. Crime, corruption, piracy will flourish.

In the midst of all this, the Rangers will be the "new sheriff in town". Remember, up until very recently, they operated in Secret.

I'd expect them to be teaching lessons in _Terror_ for some years to come. Particularly since the sort of people who turn to crime and piracy are very slow learners.

After that, they'll have to fight the really Dangerous enemies: The ones with lawyers.

------------------
Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

 

[drakh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakana:
In the midst of all this, the Rangers will be the "new sheriff in town". Remember, up until very recently, they operated in Secret.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I wouldn't call 5 years
recently (by the end of the 3rd season, they were pretty much openly involved in the war).

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> I wouldn't call 5 years recently (by the end of the 3rd season, they were pretty much openly involved in the war). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


With a history going back 1000 years, 5 is pretty recent.

However, what I was referring to is the fact that most of the races have no real knowldge of the Rangers aside from the fact that they had the White Star Fleet. They have almost no experience with the Rangers as an Organization or as People. They will need to be Taught "not to monkey with the buzzsaw while the buzzsaw is cutting wood."

There is also the fact that many beings suffer from "selective memory". Remember the people in B5 who seemed incapable of admitting that the Minbari almost annihilated the human race. They just kept repeating smugly: "But the Minbari surrendered.", then (metaphorically) putting their fingers in their ears and going "nanananananana" whenever someone tried to explain that _We Lost and we have no idea why they didn't just kill us all_




------------------
Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Remember the people in B5 who seemed incapable of admitting that the Minbari almost annihilated the human race.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most of the Human race doesn't know that they were almost annihilated. They don't know Minbari simply surrendered at the Battle of the Line for reasons of their own. Even Carolyn Sykes in the pilot says that we stopped them at the Line - Sinclair has to correct her.

After the Minbari surrender the official story from EarthGov is that the Line had indeed held the Minbari and - despite its own losses - inflicted such crippling damage on the Minbari Fleet that they sued for peace. Sinclair, McIntyre and the others were given special medals for the Line, not for their heroic willingness to sacrifice themselves but for winning the battle. That is one of the reasons that Sinclair feels like such a fraud as a "Hero of the Line", and only makes his "survivor's guilt" seem worse.

When Sheridan speaks of "losing a war" to the ISN reporter - and she corrects him - it is a slip of the tongue. Within the military it is pretty well-known what really happened, but the population at-large still thinks we won. That's why Sheridan just looks a little embarassed and agrees with the reporter that "we won." He had almost given away what amounts to a state secret.

There is a good chance that EarthGov instituted some kind of military censorship of the news during the Minbari War. This seems to be implied in In the Beginning. The people of Earth and the colonies only know what the news tells them, and the news only reports what the government wants them to know.

Do you think the people of Iraq today know that their country invaded a neighbor on no provocation and that its vaunted military got its collective ass kicked? Or that military units were trying to surrender to U.S. news crews? Hell, no.

The Iraqis have probably been told that the attack on Kuwait was a limited purpose "punative expedition" rather than an annexation, and that their troops left on schedule. There would be no mention of a coalition involving many Arab countries united against their invasion.

Desert Storm was doubtless explained as an unprovoked U.S. invasion of Iraq aimed at toppling Saddam Hussein, which the heroic Iraqi Army stopped - and therefore a victory for Saddam. Now, if you're an Iraqi citizen, and the only news you can get is state-owned radio and television, that's what you believe.

Same with the Humans. Most of them think that in the final battle we beat the Minbari, and therefore they have a very exaggerated sense of our place in the universe.

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> When Sheridan speaks of "losing a war" to the ISN reporter - and she corrects him - it is a slip of the tongue. Within the military it is pretty well-known what really happened, but the population at-large still thinks we won. That's why Sheridan just looks a little embarassed and agrees with the reporter that "we won." He had almost given away what amounts to a state secret. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't read it that way. I read it as a "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with Facts." sort of situation. Plus, by that time, he knows that ISN is reporting ONLY the EarthGov party line. IOW, no point in arguing, we're rewriting history as well as the dictionary.

I see no way at all that EarthGov could have enforced a "state secret" that _everyone_ in the military knew. Not in the early days after the Minbari "Surrender". Too many people who knew we'd already lost. After all, the Earth President had announced the last ditch effort to evacuate as many Women & Children as possible. No way would they get anyone to forget That!

The best thing they could do at that time would have been to keep quiet and let the "conspiracy theory" nuts invent reasons for the surrender. Such theories would be more likely to be believed than any govt brag anyway.

I'm sure that for several months (at least) after the surrender, EarthGov walked on eggshells. When you don't know why the enemy Stopped, you also don't know what might make them MAD again.

It was made clear that the Only person who got an explanation from the Minbari was the President and She (and later presidents) was sworn to secrecy.



------------------
Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakana:
After that, they'll have to fight the really Dangerous enemies: The ones with lawyers.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You mean they are going to fight Wolfram and Heart, the demon lawfir

------------------
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." -- Captain Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie (The Drumhead)

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> What, no one liked my Elvis sightings reply? Oh well, I guess I was in a goofy mood then and thought it would be fun to mention the Rangers bumping into Elvis or an Elvis impersonator, even 200-some odd years from now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I loved that scene. It went Perfectly with Zack's dialogue about expecting the Second Coming any moment now. Especially since Zack doesn't even Notice the Elvises.

One of the best sight gags ever.

------------------
Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I doubt we will be seeing the Vorlon home world or what's beyond the rim. Mainly because there is no way it could live up to all the expectations we have for them. If the vorlons or shadows returned in any form it would lesseen the iMpact of thier leaving on B5. As for the shadows and vorlons destroying earths sun, well what kind of a 3rd age would it be if they can just come along and interfere with entire races? They left because it was our time to make the choices not thiers. Seeing some shadow or vorlon tech is quite possible though.

------------------

 

[DavidB]

The first time I see the Vorlons or Shadows or any first ones back on TV. Will be the last time I watch any new B5.

If they come back it will make the whole point about B5 was 'killing your parents' it would make the 5 years of B5 meaningless.


------------------

 

[Galahad]

Yes and I'm sure when the Rangers find him, he will be dancing up and down Blackpool promenade alongside Lord Lucan who will be riding Shergar.

------------------
"We Live for the One. We die for the One!"

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>

For that matter, I've been wondering for a long time if the Vorlons didn't have some kind of ace in the hole of their own. They might have some race who's still patrolling the border of the Vorlon Empire, making sure the automated defenses keep working, preventing anyone and everyone from getting through.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We already know some of that is likely. The Vorlons abducted human beings and... improved them... for their own purposes. All were implanted with Vorlon memories, and some were given powers and specific missions. Lyta is one such an example. She's a living atomic bomb that's quite capable of infiltrating any humanoid society without drawing undue notice.

She's probably not the only one. Dozens. Millions maybe... all with Vorlon-influenced personalities, and all with a mission that remains as yet unrevealed...



------------------

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Vorlon organic technology is more than enough to keep the younger races away from their homeworlds. No need for anyone to "patrol" anything.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>She's probably not the only one. Dozens. Millions maybe... all with Vorlon-influenced personalities, and all with a mission that remains as yet unrevealed...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, she almost certainly was the only one. For one thing, as with Jason Ironheart, JMS doesn't like to have superbeings running around the plotline. For another Lyta herselfsaysas much. "In a war, Mr. Garibaldi, you make lots of little weapons and a few medium sized ones and one or two really big ones. A doomsday device to use when you run out of all the others."

Doesn't sound like the kind of thing the Vorlons would have mass-produced to me.

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

 

[Jomar]

When we saw that short scene of the Vorlon home world inYear 5 there were people in tanks from many races, some of them babies, and we saw Lyta in just such a tank too. One wonders what happened to them. Did the Vorlons just take off and leave them behind, or take them along, or did they release them. If they were left behind, then presumably there are some "people" there to look after them. Or maybe not.

It's a nasty thought.

------------------

 

[preacher]

The Drakh are a much more dangerous threat. remember the warnings about them from season 5: "the shadows had servants, and some of them now want to be the masters" (or something like that).

The Drakh have the danger of becoming like the Shadows. Remember what Lorien said about Z'ha'dum - the Shadows stayed because he stayed and they wanted to be close to him. And then they got lost because they decided they were 'righter' than the first ones.

I agree w/ the folks who said that the first ones, Vorlons and Shadows are gone for absolute good. that was the whole point of the "dawn of the third age" line from the season 1 monologue.
but imagine if your parents (the Vorlons and Shadows) died and you found out that the house you live in houses their extensive collection of antique live land mines and hand grenades. i think that was what Lyta's warning was all about.

and was it ever firmly established that Lyta went to the Vorlon homeworld? i thought one of the canon short stories ("Nautilus Coil" by Keyes) implied that the telepath experiments and alterations were done on a Vorlon planet but not the homeworld?
but no one has ever said what happened to those other telepaths. as Lyta said "only a few the really big ones" which implies more than 1.

------------------
"I bring the Hand of God and that is all I bring. I speak for the Hand of God. I am the Preacher"
The Preacher - "Children of Dune"

 

[Deviot]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by preacher:





and was it ever firmly established that Lyta went to the Vorlon homeworld? i thought one of the canon short stories ("Nautilus Coil" by Keyes) implied that the telepath experiments and alterations were done on a Vorlon planet but not the homeworld?


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well yes it has been established that Lyta went to the Vorlon homeworld.

well about the telepath experiments alteratiosn where done at a number of different place's some of it was even done on earth.

The planet that Lyta went to in "The Nautilus Coil" was a bit of a Vorlon hang but it wasn't the only place the vorlons worked in fact I don't think Lyta had been to the plamnet in this story before she was altered on the Vorlon homworld(from what we were and Lyta were led to beleive who knows if it is truth).

Vorlon space was hudge and they worked in secret on many a species homworld I beleive..remember they altered many race;s not just earthers.

------------------
Deviot
Lincbot@yahoo.com.au

 

[RW7427]

What, no one liked my Elvis sightings reply?

Oh well, I guess I was in a goofy mood then and thought it would be fun to mention the Rangers bumping into Elvis or an Elvis impersonator, even 200-some odd years from now.

------------------
Sheridan to Bester:
And I could nail your head to the table, set fire to it, and feed your charred remains to the Pak'ma'ra.

 

[SatStorm]

JMS has his unique way to present things...
Vorlons and Shadows explained his way, why we beleive the good is like an angel and the bad is like an arachnoid..
B5 played with our fears for spider-like creature and the dark. Those stands for bad, but why?
He gave his answer to that why.

Now, I think he will explain -his way- why we are using only the 9% of our brain.
You do know that humans use only the 9% of their brain? And we also don't know what the remaining 91% stands for?
But, if that 91% are memories? In a sleeping form?
I thing B5LR will show shadows and Vorlons and zogs and who knows what more! Probably, we carry them in our minds!

With B5LR, JMS will expand his universe, so to create stories and spinoffs for ever.

B5 was the start. The begining. For all that...

B5LR will expand the story.
The best to expect from the series, is a crossover between Battlestar galactica, Star Trek the New generation and Babylon 5 with an '00s look. All the good ideas in a JMS direction!
He needs now b5LR, to creat a -hit TV series- which will allow him to do experements like Crusade. Crusadewas to heavy for mainstream US TV today.


------------------
....seems that everybody loves me....

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> With B5LR, JMS will expand his universe, so to create stories and spinoffs for ever. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is Not what JMS is about. He plans each story to have a Beginning, Middle and End.

That's why he Blew Up Babylon 5 at the end. That was _Always_ part of the plan. He wanted it perfectly clear that B5 was NOT an endless franchise.

JMS will tell the stories that matter to him in the B5 universe. When he feels like it's going stale or everything that needs to be said has been said, he'll quit.

Remember, JMS is already working on several Other New Projects that have Nothing to do with Babylon 5.

Professionally, JMS likes to keep moving on to new things, new places, finding new ways to push the envelope. In some ways, JMS career resembles his childhood: Constantly on the move, never staying too long in one place.



------------------
Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?