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Question For Tobias Clutch

G

gkarfan

Beyond the rim
When you saw Legend of the Rangers, were you expecting it to be as good as, say, Severed Dreams? If so, I think you were expecting too much from a pilot. SFC wants new fans to get into the B5 universe, also. I first saw B5 on the night before TNT started airing the series. The Gathering & In the Beginning aired that night. I could follow The Gathering, which, admittedly, was a bit ragged as a pilot. In the Beginning totally confused me. The Gathering intrigued me enough, though, to watch the rest of the series. I think that a pilot shouldn't pile on too much information, & I think you expected Rangers to be more like an arc-intensive B5 episode. I think you made your expectations a little too high.

Tammy

------------------

"We're in here! Can anyone hear us?"
"I hear you." [giggle, laugh]
"In here!"
"We are here." [giggle, laugh]
-- Londo and G'Kar in Babylon 5:"Convictions"

Tammy's Station
http://community.webtv.net/gkarfan/TammysStation
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by westtim:
Tammy,

I'm sure that you will find that Tobias did not have any high expectations for the "Rangers" pilot. Such a sentiment would be consistent with his posts. Tobias has even gone so far as to drag other reviews on to this site in order to convince us how utterly futile it is to have any hope for Rangers. To back off that now and say that maybe her expectations were a bit to high and that taken on its own it was entertaining would not fit with her MO.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I loved B5, I detested Crusade, and I had high hopes that JMS would get back in the saddle for Rangers - I went in with hopes quite high for a *good show*... Not something as specific as *good B5*. Unfortunately, I was severely let down by the pedestrian nature of the entire affair. Do I think Joe is a hack? No. Do I think he's done better? By leaps and bounds. Am I disappointed that he does not see the flaws in Rangers? Definitely.

Are these my opinions? Yes.

Do not seek to apply your misguided beliefs as to "motivations" in looking for some grand conspiracy.

Discussion is a good thing. I came here to discuss, not to impose a viewpoint. I presented it - I am in no way trying to impose that viewpoint on others.

However, I will defend my viewpoint, and the right for anyone here to draw their own judgements as to the quality of the final product.

I honestly can not wait until it airs in January to see all of yours.

Until then, frankly, I remain dismayed by the dogmatically vindictive nature of B5 fans. It is ironic that a show that presents such a strong argument for level-headedness, enlightenment, and tolerance would produce a fanbase that exhibits so little of those qualities.

If anyone would like to discuss anything further, feel free to contact me via e-mail at sturmer40@hotmail.com

Until then, be happy that you've managed to bludgeon measured discussion from amongst your ranks yet again.




[This message has been edited by Tobias Clutch (edited October 26, 2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tobias Clutch:
Until then, frankly, I remain dismayed by the dogmatically vindictive nature of B5 fans. It is ironic that a show that presents such a strong argument for level-headedness, enlightenment, and tolerance would produce a fanbase that exhibits so little of those qualities.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please don't generalize all b5 fans based on contact with people who would make up less than 0.001% of B5 fans.

Just one question - Did you like the gathering?



------------------
Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
Please don't generalize all b5 fans based on contact with people who would make up less than 0.001% of B5 fans.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I shall not - although the percentage is much higher than you mention.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Just one question - Did you like the gathering? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Through it's many flaws - mostly pacing issues - I did enjoy the Gathering as a launching point for a series. Londo's line regarding the fallen Centauri republic - "Open nine to five, Earth time" - was the perfect clincher to establish great potential.

Rangers, unfortunately, contains no such flashes.


------------------
 
Hey looky! Another let's crucify Tobias Clutch thread! Yay, I love these!

I had to get in my daily dose of sarcasm, Gkarseye was beating me
laugh.gif


Seriously though, can't you just leave him alone? It's only a review.

May Valen be with you.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Through it's many flaws - mostly pacing issues - I did enjoy the Gathering as a launching point for a series. Londo's line regarding the fallen Centauri republic - "Open nine to five, Earth time" - was the perfect clincher to establish great potential.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think there are some several million fans, B5 got 3+ ratings and doesn't that stand for a million per unit? And that doesn't include worldwide fanbase, which seems to be far more significant than in the US.

I suspect you enjoy it far more now than you did the first time because at first it made no sense due to it's large foreshadowing. Unless you can see the future?
laugh.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Rangers, unfortunately, contains no such flashes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMO = In my opinion

It's helpful since it defines what you consider opinion and what you consider fact.
smile.gif


But maybe your right, can't say still until I see it. Doesn't sound like it from what JMS has said, who tends to be his own worst critic at times. But I can overlook that since everyone has a bias, whether the admit it or not but the fact WB and Sci-Fi have both praised it also adds confusion.

------------------
Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light
 
Tobias,

I think you are reading things the wrong way. It is not so much that you disliked "Rangers", it is the disadvantage that you put everyone else at. Because you've seen the movie and we have not. The playing field is uneven. Thus we can not meaningfully discuss the movie. Instead we must discuss what YOUR tastes are (which is , no offense, ridiculus). All we are left with is your insistence that it is not good. This becomes annoying after awhile. It would have been better for everyone if you would've just waited until this January (like the rest of us) to discuss the pros and cons of Rangers. Had you done this you might have found the content of the discussions more akin to what you think B5 fans should be about. We could have discussed the movie instead of whether Tobias liked "The Gathering" or not. However it does make you special doesn't it?

Having not seen the movie we can not defend against your comments. We can not judge if they are valid are not.

B5 fans are NOT narrow minded we are just frustrated. It seems that it is very difficult to get anything B5 successfully launched. When you come here and trash the show it only adds to are frustration. Look Tobias, if the future of B5 depended only on "The Gathering" then B5 should not have had a future. However "The Gathering" was just a first step to something great. Many of us here feel that, regardless of the quality of "Live and Die in Starlight", it will lead to something great. You hated "Crusade" however the 13 episodes were building toward something really good (I wonder if you've read the unfilmed "Crusade" episodes. These scripts stand equally with the best of B5).

Maybe I've been a little hard on you Tobias. But you've invited some of it.
Honest to God, If I had an advanced preview of "Rangers" only my wife and I would be discussing it. I certainly would not seek out a discussion group for it and trash it.
What would be the point?

------------------
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by westtim:
Tobias,

I think you are reading things the wrong way. It is not so much that you disliked "Rangers", it is the disadvantage that you put everyone else at. Because you've seen the movie and we have not. The playing field is uneven. Thus we can not meaningfully discuss the movie. Instead we must discuss what YOUR tastes are (which is , no offense, ridiculus). All we are left with is your insistence that it is not good. This becomes annoying after awhile. It would have been better for everyone if you would've just waited until this January (like the rest of us) to discuss the pros and cons of Rangers. Had you done this you might have found the content of the discussions more akin to what you think B5 fans should be about. We could have discussed the movie instead of whether Tobias liked "The Gathering" or not. However it does make you special doesn't it?

Having not seen the movie we can not defend against your comments. We can not judge if they are valid are not.

B5 fans are NOT narrow minded we are just frustrated. It seems that it is very difficult to get anything B5 successfully launched. When you come here and trash the show it only adds to are frustration. Look Tobias, if the future of B5 depended only on "The Gathering" then B5 should not have had a future. However "The Gathering" was just a first step to something great. Many of us here feel that, regardless of the quality of "Live and Die in Starlight", it will lead to something great. You hated "Crusade" however the 13 episodes were building toward something really good (I wonder if you've read the unfilmed "Crusade" episodes. These scripts stand equally with the best of B5).

Maybe I've been a little hard on you Tobias. But you've invited some of it.
Honest to God, If I had an advanced preview of "Rangers" only my wife and I would be discussing it. I certainly would not seek out a discussion group for it and trash it.
What would be the point?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Westtim, I think yours is the most rational post in this thread. I really think you hit the nail on the head here. "It makes you special, doesn't it?"

As an aside, I still believe that a reviewer should use his/her name to be taken seriously. After all, if it turned out that reviewer holds some kind of a job that would benefit from the failure of "Rangers", it would make that review highly suspicious, wouldn't it?

I like analyzing sci-fi (even though it annoys some people around here). It’s all part of the fun of intelligent sci-fi. But I can’t imagine going out of your way to bash a show that won’t even be shown for months. I figured out awhile ago that it must all be about ego, and began to ignore most of it. But I’m glad I read this thread. I think you really hit the core issue perfectly. I don’t listen to professional reviewers who use their own names. Why would I listen to someone with who-knows-what agenda (aside from getting a LOT of attention).


------------------
"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

"I think I speak for Mr. Bloom and myself when I say: you are the only director in the World who can do justice to 'Springtime For Hitler' " - Zero Mostel, The Producers
 
It probably would have been better to come to the board after the movie aired.

That way, we could agree or disagree with your review (after having seen the movie). As it is, there's not really much to discuss.

------------------
"There's Snow White and the Seven Narns, Who's Your Little Pak'ma'ra, others..."
- Captain Matthew Gideon, The Needs of Earth
Rising Star
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hypatia:
Westtim, I think yours is the most rational post in this thread. I really think you hit the nail on the head here. "It makes you special, doesn't it?"

As an aside, I still believe that a reviewer should use his/her name to be taken seriously. After all, if it turned out that reviewer holds some kind of a job that would benefit from the failure of "Rangers", it would make that review highly suspicious, wouldn't it?

I like analyzing sci-fi (even though it annoys some people around here). It’s all part of the fun of intelligent sci-fi. But I can’t imagine going out of your way to bash a show that won’t even be shown for months. I figured out awhile ago that it must all be about ego, and began to ignore most of it. But I’m glad I read this thread. I think you really hit the core issue perfectly. I don’t listen to professional reviewers who use their own names. Why would I listen to someone with who-knows-what agenda (aside from getting a LOT of attention).


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


By using a psuedonym, how does "getting attention" even factor into this?

I came to this board after seeing the uproar over Chris Pike's review - a review that I agreed with - and decide to wade in and clarify certain misconceptions. Foolish me.

Ah well.



------------------
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tobias Clutch:

By using a psuedonym, how does "getting attention" even factor into this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Arsonists frequently hang around to see people gather to watch their fires burn. It's quite common, I believe, actually. You don't have to admit to your true identity to get a rush out of "getting attention".

------------------
"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

"I think I speak for Mr. Bloom and myself when I say: you are the only director in the World who can do justice to 'Springtime For Hitler' " - Zero Mostel, The Producers
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackStar:
It probably would have been better to come to the board after the movie aired.

That way, we could agree or disagree with your review (after having seen the movie). As it is, there's not really much to discuss.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that is the conclusion everyone is eventually gravitating towards.
crazy.gif


In another few months, this will be a valid discussion! Until then, well...

------------------
"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

"I think I speak for Mr. Bloom and myself when I say: you are the only director in the World who can do justice to 'Springtime For Hitler' " - Zero Mostel, The Producers
 
Until then, way too many people in this forum are having nervous breakdowns over reviews.

Like I said, *Breath in, breath out*

Works everytime.
laugh.gif


------------------
"There's Snow White and the Seven Narns, Who's Your Little Pak'ma'ra, others..."
- Captain Matthew Gideon, The Needs of Earth
Rising Star
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hypatia:
Arsonists frequently hang around to see people gather to watch their fires burn. It's quite common, I believe, actually. You don't have to admit to your true identity to get a rush out of "getting attention".

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, for cripes sake...

------------------
 
Hypatia, you are way to quick to accuse people. Arsonists? I understand the analogy, but really, come on.

Sorry to single you out like that, it's probably not fair. Lots of people are doing the same thing.

Tobias is not Satan. He doesn't sacrifice virgins to his Dark Master anymore.

I humbly request the moderator(s) to close any threads regarding Chris Pike's and Tobias' reviews and/or opinions. I think every point imaginable (and unimaginable) has been made.

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
Hypatia, you are way to quick to accuse people. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was not accusing anyone of being an arsonist. I was answering a question very logically, I thought. How can one get the thrill of attention while staying anonymous? Very easily, actually.

Although setting a fire could be considered an analogy to this situation, I didn't intend that meaning. I was, literally, answering a question. How can it be? It's quite common, actually.

It's just a silly point anyway. Why take an anonymous review months before the air date seriously? We'll get back to this debate later, when it is appropriate.

But honestly, I was just answering a direct question that was asked. It's the math teacher in me. If someone declares "that cannot be" I will feel a need to correct them if I know of an example contrary to that opinion.

------------------
"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

"I think I speak for Mr. Bloom and myself when I say: you are the only director in the World who can do justice to 'Springtime For Hitler' " - Zero Mostel, The Producers
 
I apologize if I offended anyone with this thread. I just wanted to ask Tobias a question, & to point out my experience as a "newbie" back in '98.

No more questions for Tobias for me!

Tammy

------------------

"We're in here! Can anyone hear us?"
"I hear you." [giggle, laugh]
"In here!"
"We are here." [giggle, laugh]
-- Londo and G'Kar in Babylon 5:"Convictions"

Tammy's Station
http://community.webtv.net/gkarfan/TammysStation
 
Ugh, hypatia, no one said you were accusing anyone of being an arsonist. You were accusing Tobias of starting trouble and staying anonymous (or something like that). That's what I was referring to.

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:

I humbly request the moderator(s) to close any threads regarding Chris Pike's and Tobias' reviews and/or opinions. I think every point imaginable (and unimaginable) has been made.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, and I will take my leave. If anyone would like to discuss anything further, it's best to go to e-mail.




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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
Ugh, hypatia, no one said you were accusing anyone of being an arsonist. You were accusing Tobias of starting trouble and staying anonymous (or something like that). That's what I was referring to.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought I was answering a question. "How can someone...". I never intended to accuse anyone of anything. I was offering what we call a "counter-example" in mathematics.

If you think something cannot be, and I can demonstrate that it CAN be, then you know you made an error in your assumption.

That was all my message meant. I was answering the question "how can it be that I'm just trying to get attention if I'm staying anonymous?" I gave a clear example of how that can happen, and can even be an expected occurrence. The question seemed genuine to me, but it was apparently meant to be rhetorical.




[This message has been edited by hypatia (edited October 26, 2001).]
 
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