paramount stole it .........

Recoil · Jan 16, 2002

I dont think they did GKE. Nor did they need to. They got 'their idea' out first, Even if it wasnt their idea. As far as the average everyday viewer, they SAW DS9 come out, then B5 which had lots of similarities. They didnt need to say anything cause the impression was that B5 came after DS9, when very few people would know otherwise. By beating B5 to the punch, they got the edge with the overall impression...

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

Capt. Neville · Jan 16, 2002

From what I understand reading all the archived stuff about this whole issue, back when B5 was waiting to be renewed for a 2nd season, Paramount basically told networks (or was it individual stations? I need to check my terminology on this one) basically "if you want to carry Star Trek, you can't carry anybody else", which was completely contrary to the policy of all the other studios at the time (such as Warners and Fox). Oddly enough, they also seemed to place this restriction only after most of B5 season 1 got shown and their ratings started climbing steadily. Of course, that could all be coincidence.

There are other incidents as well, but that's the one I remember off the top of my head with anything resembling clarity. Also, don't take my word for it, because then it's just my word against somebody else's--check the archives on jmsnews.com, hell, it'd be interesting just for kicks to actually look up and see if the statements in question (re. Paramount to the networks, etc) can be found (I mean, it's gotta exist on paper *somewhere*, right?)

--mcn

Arrghman · Jan 16, 2002

alternatively, its the difference between conotative and denotative (did i spell those right? gosh its late right now...)

personally i thought coriana 6 was very climactic... and in addition to tying all the plots together, it certanly had a very nice CG battle (which people like me go nuts over

) ...and then of course the part where the ships starting taking missle hits to protect sheridan and delenn, wow

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PsionTen · Jan 16, 2002

I hate this debate, especially when JMS himself didn't even deem it prudent to sue Paramont, or B&B, or whoever you think it was that stole the idea. Sure, there may have been prudent reasons why he didn't sue, but the fact is that he didn't and in this country we settle disputes like this in a courtroom. Since JMS didn't even stick up for his own legal rights, then it seems rather pointless to now (after the statute of limitations had run) debate this moot point.

Anyway going back to the Sheridan/Sisko comparison... I have to agree. It does seem as though Sisko intends to come back while Sheridan is gone forever. I'll only add that we don't know what Sisko will come back as. Does it mean he'll be back in the flesh or that he'll do more of those funky wormhole dream sequence calls. I pretty much got the idea that Sisko was going to be an absentee father and husband from here on out, only making sparse visits a 'la what he did with Jake in "The Visitor."

Sheridan is gone and Delenn never saw him again in her lifetime, but there was still that Minbari mumbo-jumbo about how he's supposed to return one-day -- (I suppose you can chalk that up to Sheridan's own mystique, which he definately worked hard to cultivate) In any case, Sheridan is off "beyond the rim" traveling with the first ones, while Sisko is in the wormhole learning from the prophets. Both leave behind loved ones, children and friends; both were feared and revered as larger-than-life icons; both were taught by beings much older and wiser than themselves; both became the saviors of their respective peoples... etc.

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"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

channe · Jan 16, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Arrghman:
you do have a good point though with the fire cavern (a scene which i personally thought was a bit anticlimatic, as it seemed that the entirety of the prophet storyline was just for sisko to throw a book into a cave<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LotR was all about throwing a ring into a cave...

*grin*

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channe@[url="http://cryoterrace.tripod.com"]cryoterrace[/url] | "I wonder," said Frodo, "but I don't know. And that's the way of a real tale."

PsionTen · Jan 16, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>LotR was all about throwing a ring into a cave...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Point.

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"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

Arrghman · Jan 16, 2002

lol, true about LotR... but still different from DS9 as that was the point of LotR from the beginning... and in DS9 he didnt even know thats what he was supposed to do, it just kinda happened...

anywho, ds9 was really rick berman's and michael piller's show... but what i suspect happened was that their ideas were independent of b5, but paramount *pushed* them in the b5-ish direction... i remember back when ds9 started they were trying to do something different from the standard 'fly around in a ship meeting things', so a spacestation would come naturally to that... actually, paramount never really liked ds9 that much once it got going... they didnt try to sabatoge it really, but they didnt give it the same consideration it gave the other series, which is why the battle in the finale was 90% reused footage...

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"Every technomage knows the fourteen words to make someone fall in love with you forever. She only needed one. Hello." -Galen, Crusade
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bakana · Jan 16, 2002

JMS would agree if you maintained that the conclusion to the Shadow War was a bit Abrupt.
That's a much better (and more accurate) description than anticlimactic.

And, it wasn't what JMS planned. He was forced to cut things a bit short (about three episodes) because Warner stalled when asked whether or not the show would get another season.
All things considered, he did an Amazing Job.
He wrapped up most of the Overt plot threads, the Obvious ones, by the end of season 4.

The series COULD have ended after only 4 seasons and we wouldn't have felt cheated out to the Ending like so many promising shows that get canceled.

We Would have felt cheated, but it would have been because of the missing Episodes, not a missing Ending.

Them, in Season 5, JMS picked up the threads we Hadn't noticed and tied most of them off, too.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

bakana · Jan 16, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "Who are you? What do you want? Why are you here? Where are you going?"
"Lorien."
"Did you think we had forgotten you? We have been waiting .. for you."
"Beyond the rim?"
"Yes."
"There is .. so much I still don't understand."
"As it should be."
"Can I come back?"
"No. This journey has ended. Another begins. Time .. to rest now."

Lorien and Sheridan in Babylon 5:"Sleeping in Light" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That pretty much makes it Official: Sheridan AIN"T "coming back".
The stories that say he would return were planted By Sheridan before he left Minbar.
He did a number of things like that to make it easier for Delenn to govern the alliance.
Even leaving Minbar to die was part of the plan. It left people unsure if he Had died.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "I want to feel space beneath me, one last time. It's where I belong, where I have always belonged.
Besides, everything we've built here, with the Alliance, has .. become .. half reality, half mythology.
And if it all ends here like it ends anywhere else.. but if it ends out there .. they'll remember it."

Sheridan to Delenn in Babylon 5:"Sleeping in Light" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

En'til'zha · Jan 16, 2002

What happened to both Sheridan and Sisko is never explained, it is diliberatly left a mystery. As for Sisko's return, I believe this was in the past. Remember what the prophets told him before going into battle- "the end of your journey lies behind you, not ahead of you" and Sisko's line "Maybe yesterday."

As for the myths surrounding Sheridan's return, I don't think he 'planted' them, he just went away to give himself an air of mystery and to maintain the magic that had sprung up around them. People are more than willing to turn people into legends and the belief that they will return is one way of doing this.

Look at Jesus and King Arthur, there is sufficient historical evidence to suggest that they did exist. After thay had died the stories told about them became more and more magical until they had become something else. These myths both inclued the belief thsat they will one day return, although I doubt either of them 'planted' these stories before their deaths.

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"Watch the Shadows, they move when you're not looking..."

[This message has been edited by En'til'zha (edited January 16, 2002).]

superbob · Jan 16, 2002

I suppose it's a reflection of human nature. Maybe there is no comming bask! People just want a hope, a messiah of some sort. Something that will justify the "now".
Hope is one of the few redeaming virtues of humankind and this is carried through by JMS.
The lousy thing is I haven't seen series 5. This is based on what I've read on the net! damn talk about sadism!

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"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"

PsionTen · Jan 16, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> If you think it's anticlimactic, you're just bitching because you didn't get to see what you wanted to see. If you want everything to be solved with big huge battles, then look elsewhere, because Babylon 5 is about something meaningful <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't "bitching" at all. Why is it that everyone on this board goes on the defense everytime somebody sees something a little differently? I happen to think the war arc was anticlimatic and I also think there's a lot of evidence to back it up. I also think that there was really no other way around it, but that doesn't change the fact that it was anticlimatic. And I never said anything about problems being solved "with big huge battles," but -- as someone else pointed out earlier -- JMS actually wanted "big huge battles" so I'm not sure what point it is you're making.

Sisko/Sheridan -- I don't really think Sheridan will be making a return visit either, but the myth is out there nonetheless. It would totally be within Sheridan's nature to create and cultivate larger-than-life myths about himself, because he's done it before. Similarly, I don't think Sisko is coming back either ... at least not in any conventional fashion.

The funny thing about these two men is how they treat their mythic stature in two totally different ways:

Sisko: For most of the series he was at war with himself over being the Emissary. He didn't like the fact that being the Emissary and being a Starfleet Captain often conflicted; He kept referring to the prophets as "wormhole aliens"; and he was uncomfortable with the entire idea of being a "religious icon." EVENTUALLY, however, Sisko became a true-believer of the first order ... even to the point where he was going to sacrfice his only son (allusions of Abraham). He accepted the fact that he was the Emissary, but he didn't really do anything to promote himself into the role and didn't do anything to promote his own mythology -- (but this may be because there already was a religion, or mythology, built around him)

Sheridan: I think that Sheridan has always being a healthy self-promoter of himself. I think that he nutured the whole "I'm the only man to face the Minbari and win" mentality and he did nothing to dissuade the belief that he was almost godlike -- returning from the dead... HOWEVER, I think that Lorien was right. The people needed to buy into that mythology... in essence, he needed to become a bigger legend than the Shadows and Vorlons themselves so that he could get everyone together to fight them. Once the war was over, however, new troubles arouse and it became necessary to continue the myth so that the Alliance could be born.....

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"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

A_Ranger · Jan 16, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:

I happen to think the war arc was anticlimatic and I also think there's a lot of evidence to back it up.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh really? You didn't provide any. Both GKarsEye and I provided the definition of climax and I even supported my argument with an example. You haven't provided any support for your argument.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
The biggest fleet of all time amasses and what happens? .... The Shadows and Vorlens want the kids to pick if they'd rather go and stay with mommie or daddy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, you are implying that there should have been a battle. An army of war vessles amasses for the purpose of fighting. What else do you logically expect to happen other than fighting? Marcus to put a bucket on his head and scare em away by pretending to be Buji?

You say it's anti-climactic, but you don't provide any support for your argument. So... we're waiting

Oh, one last thing. We aren't attacking you or being defensive because you see something differently. We're debating with you. You provided a debatable topic, we went with it.

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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

Recoil · Jan 16, 2002

Fellas, as I said above, it all depends on your expectations.

If you expected the Shadow war to end in one huge battle or battles, then yea...it was anti-climatic the way it ended.

I on the other hand, kind of knew that considering how much more powerful the Shadows and Vorlons were than the rest of the races combined, kind of knew it couldn't end in battle, so I was wondering HOW it would end. So to me the ending of it was very interesting and entertaining.

Not really a point in debating something that is a matter of opinion and expectations...

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

Arrghman · Jan 16, 2002

agree with recoil... ones expectations are not absolute, if you expect one thing and get something else its always a let down... no sense picking apart someones expectations now, is there?

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Jade Jaguar · Jan 17, 2002

On first viewing, I was sure Sheridan's plan was to provoke the Vorlons and the Shadows into fighting each other, since the Alliance couldn't really hope to take on a major force of either one directly. But they might have been able to mop up what survivors of that clash remained, especially with the help of the few other remaining First Ones. That was logical, and fit Sheridan's actions pretty well. So I was suprised by the resolution, but pleasantly so, even if I did expect a big space battle, because working things out peacefully is so rare in such cases in fiction, and reality. So, although it clearly was a climax, and I liked it, it was a suprise!

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You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood

Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.

superbob · Jan 17, 2002

I gotta agree with that. I honestly thought there was going to be a big show down! bring on out the expectations, baby!
All of a sudden there's a first ones confrence whilst the whole fleet is stuck in the shadows "death cloud" a wee bit unexpected I'll admit. Different definitely anticlimatic , for sure, why? my expectation in a different direction so as a result the climax came from a different sector. Just for the record I enjoyed it.
One last thing people, lets enjoy the forum and not get to heated with the discussions. Psion ten you have to understand that some of these people have an almost encyclopedic knowledge of this show so as a result are quick to anger. Take it in stride , I know you're not fed up but I've been bombed several times but still keep coming back simply because it's refreshing communicating with people that have an opinion and aren't afraid to use it.

Yours sincerely, peace keeper number one!

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"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"

bakana · Jan 17, 2002

I think the problem the Anticlimactic camp has is that they Expected something.
And that what they Got was totally different.

For people who Like their fiction Predictable, it's a letdown.

For those of us who Appreciate fiction that surprises us and goes down the "road less traveled", it was a great plot twist.

All the elements that were needed to support the resolution we Got were there.
Hidden in plain sight, in JMS inimitable fashion.

As I said before, the Correct word is Abrupt because JMS was forced to compress the story by about 3 episodes.
If he'd known he was going to get the 5th season, we'd have seen a bit more of Ivanova & Lorien searching for the First ones, we'd probably have seen a few more "discoveries" about the true nature of the Conflict as well as the true nature of the Vorlons & Shadows.

But, we got what we got.
No use crying over spilt exposition.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 17, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
Huh???

The only connection I know of between Star Trek and Lost in Space is that both were pitched to CBS. As far as I know (and this comes from David Gerrold, who got it from Roddenberry) when Gene R. pitched Trek to CBS they turned it down on the grounds that they had already bought an outer space show that they liked better - Lost in Space.

Meaning that Irwin Allen had already pitched his series to the network and sold it before anyone at CBS ever heard of Star Trek.

There wasn't any way Allen could have stolen the idea from Roddenberry. (Besides, as everyone knows Irwin Allen was ripping off The Swiss Family Robinson - Space Family Robinson being the working title for the project. I can't see Gene stealing a premise that cheesy. He was stealing from Wagon Train and Horatio Hornblower.

)

Regards,

Joe

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the way I read it (in ST:Creator, IIRC), Gene pitched ST, they told him they'd think about it, then called him to say 'no thanks', and all of a sudden, LIS appeared, and the book made it sound like Roddenberry was pretty ticked off, and felt that they had led him on, made notes, then rushed his ideas of to Irwin.
What the facts are, I don't know, as I wasn't there, and we can't ask Gene anymore.
Is Irwin still alive?
Anyway, that was *my* understanding, and I'm sure others perceive it that way too.

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Darkwing
Let's..get..dangerous

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 17, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>if there was a rip off b5, it was only in the initial premise of the show, and these more emotional aspects of most of the characters didnt come into play till later on...

think of it this way... paramount was responsible for pushing ds9 to be like b5 just as tnt would have been responsible for pushing crusade to have wrestlers and scantly clad women. but the bulk of the series arose completely independent of b5.

i think its easy for people to say that ds9 ripped off b5, because then they're allowed to like it even though its trek... let it stand on its own...

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, Berman said that they deliberately set the show where they did so they could have conflict with non-starfleet major characters.
I liked DS9 well before I ever saw B5, and in fact thought that it was a rip-off of DS9 at first (I saw a reviewer call it 'Harlan Ellison's revenge')but when I saw B5, I was blown away, then noticed all the similarities, and eventually figured out *this* is where it originated, rather than the other camp. I still like all thingsTrek (except much of vgr).
And DS9 started arcs well after B5, they just never graduated to full use of the technique, so it wasn't just an initial rip-off.

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Darkwing
Let's..get..dangerous

paramount stole it .........

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