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Re: They guessed the acronym.

Scottish buddy who recently took me to task for daring to suggest that Scots spoke Gaelic!!
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A fair number of Scots Gaelic speakers prnounce it "gallic", but it's stil Gaelic. Heh, it's all Greek to me!!! :LOL:

The Gaelic language, as it exists in Scotland, isn't any more native than Scots (derived from Northumbrian OE) or Scottish Standard English (hybrid of the derivations of Nortumbrian and Mercian OE) as it came from Ireland.

VB
 
Re: They guessed the acronym.

compare these two phrases: "I can tell you;" and "I can not not tell you." They have different meanings.
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Yes they do. However, the two Not's are not both negating (or double negating) the same thing. One of them is negating "can" and the other is negating "tell". That sentence really does not contain a double negative. It contains two single negatives which happen to be side by side.
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I have to disagree and go with grumbler on this one. The phrase "I can tell you" implies that I'm allowed to tell you. The phrase "I cannot not tell you" implies that I know I shouldn't tell you, but something is compelling me to overide that prohibition, and tell you anyway.

Subtle, but different, which I why I love the English language :D
 
Re: They guessed the acronym.

Er....excuse me for butting in, but I keep an eye on this thread hoping there might actually be some news from JMS !!
Well? Anything yet??
 
Re: They guessed the acronym.

Subtle, but different, which I why I love the English language
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I never said that the two sentences didn't have different meanings. In fact, I explicitly agreed that they did mean different things. What I disagreed with was the contention that the second sentence contained a double negative. I still maintain that it does not.

Using parentheses to cluster negations with the words that they are modifying, the sentence would be parsed as follows:

I (can not) (not tell) you.

There is no double negative in there. It is not:

I can (not (not tell)) you.

nor:

I ((can not) not) tell you.



Looking at the version with only one "not", it can mean two different things depending on how the speaker emphasizes the various words (and thereby, which word they are attaching the "not" to). It can be either:

I can (not tell) you.

or

I (can not) tell you.


Those two readings also produce two different meanings (the second being more common). The "can not not tell" version just contains both of those single usages of "not", "not tell" and "can not".
 
Re: They guessed the acronym.

I'm going to have to disagree with you, Joe.

You might need to spend just a bit more time in the south.

At least in the relatively un-hickified northern florida 'you all' (which ends up sounding like 'ya'll' no matter how much well you enunciate) is exclusively to address a group of people. I've never heard anyone use 'y'all' when speaking to one person. That's just weird.

I really wish JMS would announce something. It's funny how incredibly off-topic these monster posts any get.


-Elle
 
Re: They guessed the acronym.

It's a good think none of you teach English. You'd all commit suicide by the end of the first week, I am sure.
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Well, no. That is an environment where it is not only not somewhat impolite to point out errors in grammer, it is expected. :cool:

Or, at least, it used to be. I'm not sure any more with the relatively recent moves toward not wanting to hurt kids self esteem by telling them they are incorrect. :rolleyes:
 
Re: They guessed the acronym.

'you all' (which ends up sounding like 'ya'll' no matter how much well you enunciate)
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That's not true. There are, in fact, regions and accents where "you" does not turn into "ya", but rather still rhymes with "true". In that case "you all" does sound significantly different than "y'all" or "ya'll".



is exclusively to address a group of people. I've never heard anyone use 'y'all' when speaking to one person. That's just weird.
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In that case this must be one that varies regionally around the South. I've never lived in the South, but just from my visits I have definitely heard "y'all" used to address lone individuals. It *might* be worth remembering that most of my trips to the South (or, at least, the Southeast) have been whitewater kayaking trips. That means that I tend to head up into the mountains and not spend time in the major cities.

On the other hand, I have heard "y'all" used for the plural much more than Joe's "all y'all" (though Joe's post wasn't the first time that I had been introduced to that usage either).
 
Re: They guessed the acronym.

'you all' (which ends up sounding like 'ya'll' no matter how much well you enunciate)
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That's not true. There are, in fact, regions and accents where "you" does not turn into "ya", but rather still rhymes with "true". In that case "you all" does sound significantly different than "y'all" or "ya'll".
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I think he meant in his personal accent.

And I love how OT this has gone. It's something to do while we wait for the Words of the Great Maker.

:D

VB
 
Re: They guessed the acronym.

You might need to spend just a bit more time in the south.
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If you think fifteen years isn't enough, you're going to have to take that up with the parole board. :)

On the other hand, I have heard "y'all" used for the plural much more than Joe's "all y'all" (though Joe's post wasn't the first time that I had been introduced to that usage either).
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Yes, I've also probably heard "y'all" used as a plural as much as "all y'all", but my main point is that it is also consistantly used as a singular form, at least in the parts of the south where I've spent the most time. (The more southern-leaning parts of Maryland, which aren't technically in the south, northern Virginia, the Atlanta area, and the rural areas of southern Florida.)

And no less an authority on all things southern than Jeff ("You might be a redneck") Foxworthy agrees with my definition of "all y'all", so I'm sticking with it. :)

My real point is that "y'all" is no more a solution to the "lack of a second person plural problem" than the more common expedient of using "you" as both a singular and plural. In both cases a single form is used in both cases and the meaning depends upon the speakers, the context and often the body language. (If I'm trying to organize a group of five people to make a campfire dinner I can say "You start the fire and you get some water while I get the pots out of the car" and be certain that two people will get to work kindling a fire and three head off to fetch water if I make good eye contact and the right gestures.)

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: They guessed the acronym.

You're from Michigan, Jade Jaguar? Me too. Maybe we'll run into each other at a con some time.

I've only recently heard that "you guys" is only a local thing. Is this true? Everyone uses it here, even the girls.
 
Re: They guessed the acronym.

I've heard "you guys" used in the Seattle area.

Someone should inform JMS that his fans have been reduced to arguing linguistics out of pure desperation for news.
 
Re: They guessed the acronym.

Although I definitely know some women who object (at least occassionally) to being included in "guys", I know more women who use "you guys" or "those guys" even when the group in question is composed entirely of females. For that matter, I know several women who use "dude" regardless of gender (although I have noticed that only in the second person, not in the third person).
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I frequently, if not almost always, refer to the people in my classes as "guys". It's just habit. When sex is not specified, the male version of the word is used. Sexist? Probably, but not in a way I find annoying personally. It would be better to have sex-neutral words, but we simply don't in English. I do use "folks" when I post a lot, but rarely when I speak in public.
 
Re: They guessed the acronym.

Joe, I was born in Oklahoma, and lived there, and in Texas and Louisiana, until I moved to Michigan the summer after seventh grade. In my experience, in those parts, and times, y'all was used exclusively to mean you, plural form. If directed to an individual, it was meant to include either his family, or other associates that had been implied by the conversation. I don't know if time has changed this, or region, but I am sad to hear that this doesn't serve exclusively as a much needed plural form. One wonders if "all y'all" didn't develope because northerners didn't understand y'all. :p

Most of the women I know, including my deceased mother and grandmother, are (were) feminists, even if they don't all identify exactly as such. Only a few have objected to using "you guys" as a familiar, non-sex specific form of address. When met with such objections, I ask what term they would have me use, and haven't gotten any suggestions, so I will continue to use "you guys," and continue to tell the women who object that I consider them "one of the guys." ;)

Workingclasshero, I live in Ann Arbor, and PillowRock lives somewhere in the vicinity, I gather.
 
Re: They guessed the acronym.

I've only recently heard that "you guys" is only a local thing. Is this true? Everyone uses it here, even the girls.
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I think that "you guys" is used much more widely than just "a local thing". However, it is not universally used either. You are much less likely to hear "you guys" in regions where "y'all" is commonly used.
 
Re: They guessed the acronym.

When sex is not specified, the male version of the word is used. Sexist? Probably, but not in a way I find annoying personally.
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That's the way it was taught in English classes when I was in high school (late 1970's). However, as more people have objected that usage has become less common. This is especially true in sentences referring to a hypothetical, indefinite someone, where "heorshe" has basically become one word. "They" has also become more common in those circumstances for people who prefer not to add the extra syllables. (As an aside: at my college graduation, commencement speaker Walter Cronkite was repeatedly heckled by a percentage of women graduates because he consistently used the male form for all of his indefinite pronouns, just like he had always been taught. For the most part they just started yelling "or she" every time he used "he" and "or her" every time he used "him".)


Back to the use of "guys":
The thing is: I commonly hear "guys" used even when it is specifically known that every member of the group being referred to is female. For example, another team in women's softball or volleyball league will still be referred to as "those guys" dispite fact that it is well understood by everyone that noone in that group could possibly be male.
 
Re: They guessed the acronym.

[/quote]
I think he meant in his personal accent.


[/quote]

Okay, that's it. You people have *got* to quit referring to me as 'he'.

*I* am a chick.

Notice the girly screenname. And the word 'Elle' typed at the end of my posts.

Thank you very much.


much love
-elle

p.s. in a desperate attempt to disasociate ourselves from McClenny and certain other rural parts of florida but still have access to a second person plural people in Jacksonville will often try to fully pronounce 'you all'. Which gets tiresome after awhile. The tongue really does want to say 'y'all' and be done with it.
 
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