• The new B5TV.COM is here. We've replaced our 16 year old software with flashy new XenForo install. Registration is open again. Password resets will work again. More info here.

Sheridan and Garibaldi *Possible Spoilers*

Sir Robin

I have been bothered by this for awhile and hopefully I can put it into words, all right.

Sinclair and Garibaldi had a very close relationship. Sheridan and Garibaldi never really got to that point. They were starting too and then Sheridan went to Z'ha'dum and Garibaldi was reprogrammed. All of season 4 they were pretty much not very good friends at all.

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>In season 5 they seemed to be getting along better, but then Garibaldi went back to drinking and Sheridan was forced to fire him. </font></td></tr></table>

Now, this is where I am a little bothered. Sleeping in the light spoilers:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>In Sleeping in the light. Franklin and Garibaldi are at Garibaldi's house on Mars, when the message from the ranger comes informing that Sheridan is dying and he wants to have 1 last party. Franklin says something to the effect is that what I think it is? And then he asks Garibaldi if he should book 2 tickets or 1. Garibaldi then says something like John and I have had our differences, but he’s a good man, book 2. </font></td></tr></table>

I know that Sleeping was made at the end of season 4, but not shown until end of season 5. And at the end of season 4 Sheridan and Garibaldi were not on great terms. And also at this point there was no centaurri trilogy books or psi corp trilogy or technomage trilogy. But, this is what I am bothered about, in the centaurri trilogy books, Sheridan and Garibaldi appear to be very close friends again almost like the Sinclair/Garibaldi relationship of old (For example Garibaldi is David’s Godfather.) So, when Franklin asks Garibaldi:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> if he is going to go to Minbar. Either 1. There should be no need to ask because he already knows of their close relationship or 2. if he did ask
Garibaldi should have said absolutely.

I do have to say though that when they are all together on Minbar. Sheridan and Garibaldi do seem to be on very good terms with each other.

So, why does it seem like they don’t get to that point (Sinclair closeness) in their friendship or maybe they do, then why that comment from Garibaldi in Sleeping? Is it possible something happened again between John and Micheal between the years 2277 and 2281? Because, in 2277 they are very good friends.

That line always bothered me too, but I think you answered your own question.

That line DOES fit, if SiL ended up airing at the end of Season 4, which is when the ep was filmed.

The line does NOT fit at the end of Season 5. Because at the end of Season 5, they had a mutual understanding that Michael's place was with his new wife, and they parted ways AS good friends. Also along came the Centauri Trilogy books, where he was practically (or in fact) a God father to David Sheridan. So yes, I think their 'differences' just occured in S4, and that line was put in there when it was thought that there may not be a season 5.

With that in mind, I tend to dismiss that line. I think it was put there to inform the viewer, or help things flow smoothly, if the series would have ended at S4.

'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK
If you look at it, all friendships - pretty much all relationships - with Mr. Garibaldi seem to be a little rocky. And many times, Garibaldi alludes to the fact that even years after his betrayal of Sheridan, even he doesn't completely trust himself.

Personally, I think Garibaldi's untrusting, suspicious nature, along with his rather rigid sense of right and wrong inevitably leads to conflict with friends. It doesn't strike me as out-of-place that Garibaldi can go from close friend one minute to worst enemy the next. We see this with Zack, Londo, G'Kar, Franklin, and Sheridan. You even see signs of erratic behavior toward Lochley.

But I agree that the question asked of him by Franklin, as well as Garibaldi's response in "Sleeping In Light" does seem a bit out-of-place.


Two things:

As already noted, "SiL" would have followed "Rising Star" if there had been no fifth season, and the last time we would have seen Sheridan and Garibaldi really "together" would have been during the resuce on Mars. In that context it would have been unnatural if some allusion to their past problems hadn't been included.

JMS had the option of editing "SiL" before it was broadcast, even reshooting a scene or two, but elected not to. Presumably he didn't think the line was that much of a problem.

The Sheridan-Garibaldi relationship is close on-screen in S5 and beyond, not just in the books. His farewell to John and Delenn near the end of the season makes that clear, as does his taking time away from his business to act as Sheridan's troubleshooter on the Victory destroyer project. (Being fired by Sheridan wouldn't really have caused a rift in their friendship. It was probably the biggest favor anyone ever did Garibaldi, since it forced him to face up to his problem and deal with it once and for all. Once Garibaldi sobered up, he would have recognized this.)

So how to square all this with the line in "SiL"? Two possibilities:

1) Franklin doesn't ask Garibaldi if he's going because he thinks Garibaldi wouldn't want to go, but because he thinks Garibaldi might feel out of place. This is the last reunion of the victors of the Shadow War and the Founders of the Alliance, after all, and the twentieth anniversary of those events. All of what happened back then is going to be on everybody's mind to a much greater degree than it normally would in their day-to-day lives, including Garibaldi's betrayal of Sheridan. Franklin is allowing for the possibility that Garibaldi wouldn't feel right about going, or even that he might think Sheridan wouldn't appreciate his presence. (Although Sheridan clearly invited him, Garibaldi could think this is merely pro forma.)

2) Someting else in the intervening years did put another strain on their relationship, at least for a time. Garibaldi's covert support for Lyta's telepaths, and the resulting war, is likely something that didn't thrill the President of the Interstellar Alliance. (Especially since, according to Bester's musings in the Telepath Trilogy, the war became big enough that the IA had to intervene in the end.)

This was likely patched up by the time of A Call to Arms, a year or two after the Teep War, but it might be enough to make Franklin ask the question. Franklin may also be unaware how close the Garibaldis and the Sheridans have become. Franklin was always the most isolated of the group, and has probably been buried in his work for most of the intervening years, staying close to Garibaldi, but probably not seeing nearly as much of Sheridan and Delenn, and rarely being with them when Garibaldi was also around.



Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

At the end of the Centauri trilogy

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Sheridan, Garabaldi, and David are taking time off to travel the galaxy together. A year of conversations like 'fasten zip or zip fasten' could drive a wedge between anyone. </font></td></tr></table>

"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doctor Gonzo:
At the end of the Centauri trilogy

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Sheridan, Garabaldi, and David are taking time off to travel the galaxy together. A year of conversations like 'fasten zip or zip fasten' could drive a wedge between anyone. </font></td></tr></table>



'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK
It is also possible that some of what people are interpreting as "Friendship" was Respect.

It's possible to Respect someone who isn't a good Friend.

And, yes, Garibaldi's decisions as Head of Edgars/Garibaldi Enterprises might bring him into conflict with Sheridan on a Frequent basis.

But, one thing Garibaldi would Not do is mistake the invitation as a "polite" inclusion.
He'd know Sheridan really wanted him because neither of them was much given to phony politeness.

There is also the possibility that Garibaldi had problems with some of Sheridan's decisions as head of the Alliance.
Decisions that could have affected some of Garibaldi's business deals.

Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."
hehe, I guess I sort of did.

Maybe, I'm just wondering was it JMS' intent that they become good friends or was this a literary discretion taken by the author of the Centaurri trilogy. Personally, I wanted them to be good friends, but I don't know if it was supposed to be that way.

good observation joev.

I maybe able to take it one step further to say that Garibaldi's friendship after Bester's influence are very rocky, because before this he had some good friends, Sinclair, TKO boxer guy, even Sheridan and Delenn.

I guess maybe he never fully recovered from the re-programming. Bester said that he enhanced his paranoia and suspicions. It's tough to have a friendship based on trust when one person is constantly suspicious.

It's possible to Respect someone who isn't a good Friend.

Sheridan does not go to Mars alone on Garibaldi's say-so just because he respects him. He does so because he believes that deep-down they are still friends and that Garibaldi would never betray him. Watch the scene in "Objects in Motion" where Garibaldi says good-bye to Sheridan and Delenn. That isn't the parting of colleagues who respect one another. And you certainly don't have your kid calling someone who isn't a friend "Uncle Mikey."

But, one thing Garibaldi would Not do is mistake the invitation as a "polite" inclusion. He'd know Sheridan really wanted him because neither of them was much given to phony politeness

It isn't like Sheridan personally mailed out the invites.
He's the ex-prez of the alliance and current Entil'Zha. The man has a staff - probably more than one. (Ex-prez, Rangers, personal servants to run the household.) Most of these folks would be Minbari. And the Minbari are all about "phony politeness", ritual and tradition. So is Delenn. Even if Sheridan didn't want and didn't expect Garibaldi to attend, Delenn or someone would have seen to it that an invitation went out to him - if only to give Garibaldi the option of ignoring it.

Just wanted to get that one in there before I moved this thread. Beyond that, I stick with what I wrote above, and long ago.


I went to the last page of the Babylon 5 section when I started moving posts over. Unfortunately I have the same problem with this board that I have when trying to clear out old magazines and the like - my eye falls on something interesting and I stop what I'm doing to read it. :) (And, in this case, to reply. ;)) I suspect I'm not the only one with this failing. No wonder this is taking so long. :D


If a new kid is allowed to jump in, here are my thoughts, mostly based on the Centauri Prime trilogy.

Garibaldi and Sheridan seem to have different ideas about childrearing. Garibaldi seems to think that Sheridan's raising David to be much too isolated and restrained, and tries to shake things up a bit. Perhaps they bickered over that after the books. It's not nearly enough to divide them, as we see in SiL, but perhaps enough to fool Franklin.
My thought on this subject has always been that perhaps Garibaldi still feels guilty inside, maybe he and Sheridan act like nothing happened, but deep down, Garibaldi is always thinking about it. And that Franklin knew.
I guess maybe theres more friction we never saw. I suppose perhaps they fell out at some point if the corp and the alliance had a spat with each other?