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rangers series: odds of seeing vorlons or shadows again?



if the show does get a "go" what do you guys think are the odds of seeing a few shadows and/or vorlons again in the new series?

the reason i even hint at the possibility is because of the movie 'b5-thirdspace'. we learned that a few influenced vorlons were enslaved by those......other beings from the other galaxy in thirdspace. when the gate was closed, some of them that made it out escaped. i doubt they would catch up to there friends outside the rim (less they regained control of themselves).

also, remember lytas line "one mistake of so many...." made by the vorlons. hmmm.......

and dont forget the shadows. we know they go into hibernation hidden on certian planets, isnt it possible that a few were left behind, and just havent awakened yet? as doubtful as this seems, dont forget that they left a planet killer, and all kinds of shadowtech behind when they left, who knows what else they left.

"if you cant say what you mean, you cant mean what you say"

"better to let a thousand guilty go free than to punish one innocent"

"the best way to find the REAL boss of any establishment is not to look for they person who signs the checks, but to look for the person who hires the lawyers."
I think the brainwashed Vorlons would have returned to their normal state like everyone else did in the movie. So they would likely not reappear in anyway other than maybe a flashback. The Shadows may have left a ship or two behind along with their nasty weapons but they themselves left. It would be interesting though to see a few more of those many mistakes the Vorlons made.

--Never argue with an
idiot. They will drag you
down to their level and
then beat you with
I'd like to see them, even if for a bit. But I imagine JMS will want to be quite fresh and new, and not retread old ground.

<font size="-2" color="silver">"The Babylon Project was our last, best, hope for peace.
A self-contained world five miles long, located in neutral
territory. A place of commerce and diplomacy for a quarter
of a million humans and aliens. A shining beacon in space,
all alone in the night. It was the dawn of the third age of
mankind, the year the great war came upon us all. This is
the story of the last of the Babylon stations. The year is
2259: the name of the place is Babylon 5."
I would like to see them again but I don't think they will return.

Very small odds.

So when the problems call
And the darkness falls,
Never forget that someone cares about you.
Never forget your dreams;
They aren't as far away,
As you might think they seem.

[This message has been edited by Vorlon (edited May 14, 2001).]
I'd really like to see them again too, but as for the chances of that actually happening, I don't think it's very likely. Then again, there's always the chance.

You name it, sooner or later, everyone comes to Babylon 5.
-Commander Jeffrey David Sinclair, The Gathering
I don't think we will see them but we might see the vorlon HW or something to do with left over shadow tech?

Emporer Turhan-"How will this end"
Kosh-"In fire"
All the First Ones have gone, but there's no reason why we couldn't see new memories of times when they (and the others) were still around. Their technology is still here too.

I wonder how much observing of the galaxy the First Ones do from intergalactic space? Lorien did say that they'd been waiting for Sheridan and came specially for him.

I think that JMS doing B5LR is to explore the B5 universe from the point of view of a Ranger Commander. It gives us the opportunity to see many of the races that are not ISA members, areas that we have heard of, but not seen, etc. JMS may be exploring his created universe for our benefit. Also, there are other races as advanced, if not more advanced than the Minbari, and with ships like the Cortez out there, we are bound to run into a few older races.

You could be fresh with the Vorlons and the Shadows. It would be stale if the old style of Vorlon Shadoe reappeared. Kosh was individual, I would say maybe even like a Vorlon version of Delenn. He may have been serving on B5 in exile originally for all we know. Maybe he was there because Ulkesh dobbed on him for hinting to Delenn about pulling in Sinclair in In the Beginning. The Vorlons in their wisdom, would not have stopped Kosh doing what he did because they knew it would have to happen, but that wouldn't stop them exiling him to Babylon 5. Such things happen when you do the right thing. Just a thought.

Anyway I am drifting. Individuality. What if there were a few Vorlons and Shadows out there wandering like the Minbari onboard the Trigati, because they disagreed with their races views. Certainly the Vorlon strays would have to fly far from their counterparts to avoid telepathic detection, and so being in deep hiding they would know nothing of events concerning the dawn of the 3rd age of mankind. What if they were to reappear? What if the Thirdspace smaller ship enemies did survive and make a run for it. Maybe they established a colony somewhere? Someone said something about the Vorlon Homeworld but if anyone goes there before 1,002,262 they are toast according to Lyta. Trips to minor Vorlon/Shadow Territory would probably be done though. Humanity would certainly keep pushing the boundaries in exploration that is our nature.

"We Live for the One. We die for the One!"
Incidentally I think that the Vorlon homeworld becomes New Earth. The timing fits. I reckon the Vorlons and Shadows opened up the jump points that wiped out Sol. Cruel as it would seem, they would be in agreement idealogically. Fot the Vorlons they would see that the time was right for us to inherit Vorlon Prime or whatever it's called, and would encourage us to go there. The Shadows would see that we were hanging back trying to cling to our past and would push us to move on. So They would probably collabarate to move us on.

Weird or what?

Timing thinking goes by what Lyta said about the Vorlon homeworld, and events in Deconstruction of Falling Stars.

I would LOVE to see a series based on Human/Minbari races going beyond the rim and their subsequent interaction with the First Ones after becoming equals witrh them. How would we fit in?

I think also that Human/Minbari evolved into higher beings because of the Valen Delenn genetic splicing events. Maybe we both have half of a gentic puzzle that would eventually unlock the key to being First Ones. If the two races hadn't had genes from the other introduced, they might have remained corporeal.

I finally reckon that being a First One means that you have a body made of Neutrons not Protons and Electrons. This is because in the clash of the Koshes, they pass through solid matter unharmed... neutron beings can do that, and are much more powerful than us. I got this idea from a theologian/scholar who reckons this might answer the science behind the resurrection of Christ. It's in a series of books called Evidence for Truth by Dr. Victor Peirce!

"We Live for the One. We die for the One!"
I would say no, we will not be seeing any Shadows or Vorlons in the Ranger project. Remember that Lorien made sure that all of the First Ones including the Shadows and Vorlons left to go beyond them rim. I would think that since Lorien agreed with Sheridan that it was time for them to leave he wouldn't change his mind and let any of them come back. Their leaving the galaxy seemed to be final, with Lorien giving his approval. If we do see any of the Shadows and Vorlons it would probably be in flashbacks. But I'm sure we will see plenty of Shadow servants, and maybe even some previously unknown Vorlon allies.

I recall that JMS said there would be vorlons in the telepath war movie. This could be a flashback of Lyta's experience on the vorlon homeworld though. Also I think that the B5LR run will go through the telepath war. Dont rule out the possiblity however small it may be.


"I really hate it when you do that"

The First Ones are gone. That was one of the major points of B5. They are not coming back, and they certainly had nothing to do with whatever is going on with the sun in "Deconstruction." I'll state that as fact, not opinion, because JMS has made it so abundantly clear.

And the Rangers TV movie takes place after the Telepath War, also per JMS. If we ever see Vorlons or Shadows again it will be in flashbacks, and they're far more likely to come in the possible Telepath War feature film or a revived Crusade because those stories are more intimately connected to the Vorlons and Shadows (respectively) than the Rangers mission of dealing with the aftermath of the First One's expulsion.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I would LOVE to see a series based on Human/Minbari races going beyond the rim and their subsequent interaction with the First Ones after becoming equals witrh them. How would we fit in?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't imagine anything duller, or less apt to create dramatic situations. Dramatic stories are all about human beings, approximately like us, struggling with the life issues we all deal with. It doesn't matter if they are dressed up as aliens, elves, rabbits or little train engines, all stories are human stories because all audiences are human.

Exotic aliens millions of years beyond us in evolution add to the sense of wonder in SF stories, but they are never the protagonists, and for good reason. By definition they are so different from us that human writers cannot realistically "get inside their heads" and human audiences cannot identify with them. We always see such beings through the eyes of people more-or-less like us.

By the time Humans are ready to lay down their guardianship of the younger races and pass beyond the Rim they will be as alien to us as we would be to an australopithecine, no more like us than a Shadow, a Vorlon or a "Zog". With no viewpoint character, how do you tell a story? How interesting would a conversation between one of the Zog aliens and a Shadow really be to us? How interesting would this message board be to a chimp?

How would the Humans and Minbari of several million years ago fit in with the other super-advanced aliens? Probably so well that there'd be very little conflict, and therefore no drama.



Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

The vorlons and the shadows will never return. But I believe we will see them on B5LR in flashbacks.
B5LR is about the aftermath of the Shadow war, and I think it will also show us how certain races were used by the Shadows and the Vorlons.
I think we will learn something more about the conflict between them and in detail what effect it had on the younger races.

It takes a very logic and precise mind...
I've gotta say, I don't think we'll be seeing the Vorlons, the Shadows, or any of the other First Ones again. They're gone. That's it. Elvis has left the building, and don't let the door hit him on the @$$ on the way out.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that their INFLUENCE is gone.

Something that I've been turning over in my head lately is the Drakh. They're a race (or collection of races) who were influenced by the Shadows to see them as gods. When the Shadows left, the Drakh tried to continue their work on their own. Kind of the same thing with the Minbari, but they go about it a whole different way (thank God).

Now, before everyone lets out a resounding chorus of "WE KNOW ALL THAT, MORON! WE WATCHED THE SHOW!", just bear with me. How do we know that the other First Ones didn't have their own followers, who we just haven't seen yet? They could be out there somewhere, beyond the ISA's borders, just waiting to run into the Rangers.

For that matter, I've been wondering for a long time if the Vorlons didn't have some kind of ace in the hole of their own. They might have some race who's still patrolling the border of the Vorlon Empire, making sure the automated defenses keep working, preventing anyone and everyone from getting through.

And wouldn't this race be naturally angry, when they learn that the Humans and the Minbari led the Younger Races in expelling the Vorlons from the galaxy? These guys could be the anti-Drakh, and the Rangers could be caught between them and the Drakh themselves.

Just a thought ...

I think only way how to see Vorlons or Shadows is some retrospective.

I also agree that we won't see any shadows or vorlons. I think it is possible we may see a first one or more likly some from a race that were created after the first ones but still very very old.

It is more likly in my opinion that we will deffinitly run into Shadow/vorlon/first one tech either of those. And also we will likly see allies of the old race's at some stage. Evil ones like the Drahk but maybe also some benevolent ones maybe.

I'm sure we won't see any Shadows or Vorlons in the Ranger movie, but what about Elvis sightings
? Remember that ep of Babylon 5 where 3 Elvis impersonators come on board the station? If they can have Elvis impersonators on B5, why not have the Rangers run into a few out in space somewhere? Just a thought!

Sheridan to Bester:
And I could nail your head to the table, set fire to it, and feed your charred remains to the Pak'ma'ra.
I just sure hope that we won't see them again. Lorien said that they'd gathered all the First One's when they left and I believe JMS will make that count.


Gideon: I thought you said you don't hold a grudge?
Galen: I don't, I have no surviving enemies, at all.