Zagros 7 and the jumpgate

[TheInfection]

In the fifth season the Centauri Warcruiser (that's ready to explode) is heading towards the jumpgate of Babylon 5 (don't remember the specific episode right now). After the ship has been safely destroyed, Lochley comments that it's dangerous and against the rules of civilized warfare. If a jumpgate is destroyed like that, it could collapse the whole system and that would be the end of interstellar travel.

In the episode Matters Of Honor, Sheridan destroyed the jumpgate of Zagros 7 by opening a jump point inside the gate's vortex. Now, isn't that equally dangerous?

Regards,
Marko Marin

 

[GaribaldisHair]

In the episode Matters Of Honor, Sheridan destroyed the jumpgate of Zagros 7 by opening a jump point inside the gate's vortex. Now, isn't that equally dangerous?

Yes it is, but IIRC that wasn't the place. The White Star went of to assist the Ranger camp at Zagros 7, but escaped into hyperspace with the shadows in pursuit.

At this point he decided to destroy the shadow ship by destroying the jump gate adjacent to the Markab home world (the Markabs having recently become extinct). He said it would destroy two birds with one stone, as scavengers had descended on the Markab's planet and were stripping it bare, and didn't like "Bounty Hunters".

(I think this is also the point at which Ivanova dubbed it the "Bonehead Manouevre").

So whilst it was equally dangerous and was equally against the rules of "civilised warfare" (great oxymoron that one!) Sheridan felt justified as it would help protect the dead Markab homeworld from looters.

But as with all things B5, it is not a black and white decision, but one whose validity or ethical soundness can be debated from many angles.

That's what I love about this show!!

 

[zootle]

He said it would destroy two birds with one stone, as scavengers had descended on the Markab's planet and were stripping it bare, and didn't like "Bounty Hunters".

I'm sure there's a very good reason, but why would it not be possible for a ship with jump engines to jump to the Markab world after the gate was destroyed?

 

[Mr. Morden]

It's certainly possible, but remember, having you own ship with jump engines is a big feat in the B5 universe. There aren't many Han Solos running around with little ships capapble of independent FTL travel. Remember how they made such a big deal about ships the size of the White Star having their own jump engines? I think that Sheridan is reasonably sure that scavengers and their ilk will be relying on their cheap, small ships using the jumpgate to get in, scavenge and pillage, and then get out.

Granted, some large criminal (or what have you) consortium could muster up a large cruiser type ship. We've seen it happen twice with the Raiders' vessel in "Coming of Shadows" (I think, you know the S1 episode with "The Eye" and the horrible hair of Lord Khiro!) and later they fought another Command and Control vessel that was hidden in an asteroid field. But I think the odds of the scavenging groups having one of these are pretty slim.

But man, that whole idea of the "World of the Dead" after the Markab plague...that's just rife with story ideas, no?

 

[Mr. Morden]

On second thought, maybe they need the nav beacon on the gate itself to know where to drop back into normal space. So maybe with the Beacon destroyed, not the gate itself, that sector of space is impossible to find. Does anyone else know?

 

[Demonn]

He said it would destroy two birds with one stone, as scavengers had descended on the Markab's planet and were stripping it bare, and didn't like "Bounty Hunters".

He called them "Grave Robbers"... not bounty hunters.

 

[zootle]

On second thought, maybe they need the nav beacon on the gate itself to know where to drop back into normal space. So maybe with the Beacon destroyed, not the gate itself, that sector of space is impossible to find. Does anyone else know?

I did wonder this myself, but then how do you get a new gate to a previously non-gate world?
Additionally, ships with jump engines seem to easily get to worlds that have no jump gate, e.g. (unless I'm very much mistaken) Zha'ha'dum?
There must be other ways of navigating without using man made hyperspace beacons.

 

[vacantlook]

worlds that have no jump gate, e.g. (unless I'm very much mistaken) Zha'ha'dum?

I thought Z'ha'dum actually had a jumpgate, which the allies of the Shadows like the Drakh, Emissaries, etc used to escape Z'ha'dum when Lyta telepathically blew the planet up after the Shadow War. I could have been mistaken though, I guess.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

worlds that have no jump gate, e.g. (unless I'm very much mistaken) Zha'ha'dum?

I thought Z'ha'dum actually had a jumpgate, which the allies of the Shadows like the Drakh, Emissaries, etc used to escape Z'ha'dum when Lyta telepathically blew the planet up after the Shadow War. I could have been mistaken though, I guess.

Yes Z'ha'dum did have a jump gate. Shadow allies for the use of.

 

[vacantlook]

Yeah, Z'ha'dum did have a jumpgate. G'Kar used it in an early episode of season two when he was out exploring the rim looking for the ancient enemy he feared was returning. And G'Kar was in a tiny single-person Narn fighter, so he had to have a jumpgate to get there (not to mention that it was shown that he used the jumpgate to leave).

 

[zootle]

OK then.

So what about Explorer class ships like the Cortez (A Distant Star).
They build new jump gates when they discover interesting worlds. How do they get to those worlds in the first place? Surely they don't travel via normal space? So, there must be a way of navigating hyperspace without gates and beacons.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

The explorer class ships contain their own jump enginees. I do not know how they navigate.

Possibly they triangulate between 3 or 4 existing jumpgates. They may have to keep jumping back into normal space to find out where they are.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

He called them "Grave Robbers"... not bounty hunters.

Quite correct. Thought it didn't sound right when I posted it. Thanks for that.

 

[GeoKuutio]

OK then.

So what about Explorer class ships like the Cortez (A Distant Star).
They build new jump gates when they discover interesting worlds. How do they get to those worlds in the first place? Surely they don't travel via normal space? So, there must be a way of navigating hyperspace without gates and beacons.

Explorer ship can be on it's own for years... So they have a larger resources to start of their own kind adventure somewhere out there...

 

[zootle]

Explorer ship can be on it's own for years... So they have a larger resources to start of their own kind adventure somewhere out there...

I know, my point is how do they navigate?
How do they get to new planets?
If they travel in hyperspace, which they must do, there must be a way of getting around without beacons.
In which case, destroying a systems jump gate does not render it inaccessible for the rest of time.

 

[GeoKuutio]

I know, my point is how do they navigate?
How do they get to new planets?
If they travel in hyperspace, which they must do, there must be a way of getting around without beacons.
In which case, destroying a systems jump gate does not render it inaccessible for the rest of time.

My theory is this: When they go past the last "known" beacon, they either start dropping new beacons, so if it proves that nothing is there, they can return and pick up those beacons, or they jump to normal space from time to time. Because, personally I can't think of any other method how to safely navigate in hyperspace... What comes to destroying jumpgate itself, in my opinion it is not fatal to the "beacon system" so to speak. Because by destroying jumpgate, it only destroys a way to enter that system, but doesn't destroy the beacon that notifies "here be dragons".

 

[Galahad]

Aren't the beacons in hyperspace? We often hear comments about dropping off the beacon, or moving further away. I am also faintly remembering seeing a beacon in hyperspace in an episode of Crusade... maybe I'm imagining it.

The jumpgate at Z'Ha'Dum is indeed there, we also see the Drakh and co evacuating using it in Epiphanies, it is different from the ones we are most familiar with in that it only has three rows of vortex generators (in triangular formation), as a pose to the more commonly seen four row diamond formation.

 

[GeoKuutio]

Aren't the beacons in hyperspace? We often hear comments about dropping off the beacon, or moving further away. I am also faintly remembering seeing a beacon in hyperspace in an episode of Crusade... maybe I'm imagining it.

The jumpgate at Z'Ha'Dum is indeed there, we also see the Drakh and co evacuating using it in Epiphanies, it is different from the ones we are most familiar with in that it only has three rows of vortex generators (in triangular formation), as a pose to the more commonly seen four row diamond formation.

Those jumpgates with three rows are Narn jumpgates, those that have four rows are EA jumpgates. I mean constructed by EA.

 

[Zathras]

Those jumpgates with three rows are Narn jumpgates, those that have four rows are EA jumpgates. I mean constructed by EA.

I doubt that the Narns are much into the jumpgate building business. And I SERIOUSLY doubt that they would build a jumpgate over Z'ha'dum without being blown up (or at least detected) by Shadow defenses.

The Centauri introduced the humans to jumpgates, and all jumpgates essentially look the same - so I doubt that the humans built all those 4-row gates that we see all over the galaxy (esp. those that have been orbiting civilized systems FAR older than ours).

Likely, the jumpgates were built by a multitude of different races with one race (vorlons?) who originally taught them how to do it. The 3-row jumpgate is probably just a more economical version of the 4-row gate. Most of the 3-row gates that we see are orbiting worlds where they would not be used as often as the larger gates (colony worlds, "dead worlds," etc.).

Another point is that jumpgates probably weren't originally intended for commerce and travel, but for military purposes. If, indeed, the Vorlons did build the first gates, then they were probably constructed during one of the previous Shadow wars in order for the Vorlons to coordinate the forces of the younger races. Once that war was over, the gates stayed in place. Why not use them to set up interstellar commerce with your new allies? And the idea grew from there - building new gates for newer worlds that came on the scene. More worlds trading means better economy for all.

 

[FlipperPA]

I always assumed that as soon as they went off the beaten track, they used the same method as during the rescue mission during "A Distant Star" or Ivanova's recovery during "Thirdspace." Keep expanding, dropping off reference points, until you find an appropriate "exit ramp."

Cheers,

-Tim