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Were Ivanova and Winters lovers?

I seem to remember JMS asserting that once we actually met some real aliens that are actually different from humans petty stuff like which sex people sleep with wouldn't seem so different anymore.
 
One could only hope that if we did meet another alien race, that the bulk of humanity would begin to not have massive problems with the things that truly aren't threatening, and instead focus themselves on other, more important things.

But then, humanity has never exactly had a bulk ability to focus on more important things. And as a result of that quality of so much of humanity, I tend to often firmly believe that we'll blow ourselves up beyond repair before we'd ever have the opportunity to meet other intelligent, sentient beings in this galaxy.
 
If Andrea Thompson had stayed it would probably have been a very interesting third year.
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And if she and Claudia had both stayed, it would have been an even more interesting fifthe year. ;)

There was no "cut footage". As noted above, no kiss was ever shot. The night the pair spends together in "Divided Loyalties" would have been there first together (again, per JMS - see the Lurker's Guide page.) So it isn't like there was an on-going relationship he was hiding - it was a gradually building relationship that he decided to pay-off at least somewhat in Andrea's last episode rather than let it just hang there. OTOH he didn't want to make the show or the episode about bisexuality. (The way the DS9 episode featuring a lesbian kiss was about that moment.) It was handled subtly, so that those who noticed would get it, but it didn't hit you over the head with it, so it was also possible to miss what was going on. In other words, it was handled just like the growing closeness between Sheridan and Delenn, or the evolving relationship between Londo and G'Kar, for that matter - it was treated as something human. And JMS didn't have a network per se to deal with. The studio and the syndication group almost never gave him notes and almost certaionly wouldn't have regarding something like this.

But still, you don't want any aspect of the show to distort the series. It didn't suddenly become I Love Delenn after Sheridan declared his feelings, and that's a good thin. What killed the series Ellen wasn't some kind of anti-gay backlash after she "came out", as she likes to imagine, what killed it is that a funny, quirky show about a woman and her friends suddenly became a weekly meeting of GLAD. The scripts became preachy and alll anybody ever talked about was homosexuality - and usually in the most earnest, boring, geez-we-get-the-point-already-bigotry-is-bad terms imaginable. Peoplee didn't stop watching the show because Ellen wasn't straight anymore, they stopped watching it because she wasn't funny.

BTW, nobody seems to have noticed the one shot that makes what happened the most obvious - when Talia, alone on one side of a double bed, reaches across to the empty side and awakens when she discovers that Susan isn't there.

Regards,

Joe
 
Didn't Ivanova confess that she loved Talia to De'lenn as part of a Membari ceremony where they all got their new uniforms? Dr Franklin confessed to having a stim problem, etc. I think the answer must be yes
 
I remember reading a piece prior to Season 2 where Claudia Christian said that her character was going to be involved in a bisexual relationship. Of course, if you blinked you missed it. It seemed at the time it was going to be more overt, but it didn't end up that way. Similarly, Delenn was orignally to transform from male to female, and that idea got scrapped (through a confluence of unrelated events). I wonder if there was a pressure to reduce the gay and transexual themes, that JMS has not owned up to. No offense to our gay members, but a lot of people would have been somewhat put off by a relationship between Sinclair or Sheridan and Delenn if that were the case.

Similarly, I've heard rumors that Mayweather on Enterprise was originally to be gay, but now he's just simply non-sexual.

And speaking of DS9, the "kiss" episode drew nearly as much fire as last year's Superbowl. It was a hell of a kiss, though.
 
I really doubt JMS was told to lay off the gay stuff, changed his arc to accomodate that, and then told lies and denied it.

As far as Delenn, being Androgenous or male in the Pilot and Season 1, JMS has commented several times that they couldn't get the voice right, and that's why he scrapped it. Why would he own up to Delenn originally being male (to turn female) and then lie about it? Wouldn't it be easier to just have never said she was meant to be a male in Season 1?

Regarding Talia leaving, that supposedly was because she wanted to be a bigger star in the series and wanted more screen time. Since that wasn't forthcoming, she chose to leave and explore other avenues.
 
Much of the reasons for Talia leaving have been discussed in this very thread, please read it.

I don't think JMS would "back off" anything. He'd quit first, just look at Crusade and Jeremiah.

As for Mayweather, I knew that one of the characters had been rumored to be gay, but never knew for sure which one. At one time I heard it was the weapons officer and that they were going to make it him so they could fight the stereotype of gay=wimp.

However, even though GR always said that the last great frontier as he saw it was to put an openly gay full-time character on Trek, RB has flat out stated that it won't happen on his watch.

What an ass. :rolleyes:

CE
 
Unless Enterprise suddenly and dramatically improves in like the next 2 or 3 episodes, RB's "watch" might not be much longer at all. ;)

Will this Friday be the first non-wrapping up last seeason story? I wanted to catch that episode, and from what I've heard here, it sounds like it will be the first really new story idea for the season.
 
The previews showed a wedding on Vulcan, I believe, and it seemed like it was going to be a "fun-type" or humorous episode (That could be just a bad interpretation of the short preview I saw).

Following this weeks episode is the 3 episode arc with Brent Spiner playing a Noonian Soong ancestor, and it's somehow connected to him putting together an army of the Superhumans (That Khan was from, Eugenics War). LeVar Burton is directing one of the episodes, I believe the 3rd. So, not sure about this weeks episode, but, next week is the beginning of his 3-episode-arc packages. Not sure if this is supposed to be the Eugenics War (Which CE dreads, since it breaks Canan to have the Eugenics War so late) or if he somehow gets ahold of the DNA or the sleepers, or what.
 
I hadn't known that one of the characters on Enterprise was rumored to be/originally planned to be/whatever gay until I decided (for some stupid reason) to check out the message boards at startrek.com when I was watch the last several episodes of last season and came across a thread of posters bitching about how there are too many gay characters on tv already, etc.
 
Didn't Ivanova confess that she loved Talia to De'lenn as part of a Membari ceremony where they all got their new uniforms? Dr Franklin confessed to having a stim problem, etc. I think the answer must be yes
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no. Remember All the descriptions of sex between telepaths. If Susan had had SEX with Talia, Talia would have known Susan waas a telepath. Period. That Susan was falling in Love with Talia, no doubt. Get your minds (and imaginations :LOL: out of the gutter!
 
Ivanova was a latent telepath; the only person she'd ever been able to enter the mind of was her mother. Talia's description of sex between telepaths was a description of two fully-active telepaths. How do we know a latent telepath would react the same that a full telepath would?
 
That's actually a point I'd never thought about before Fisheggs mentioned it. :cool:

Thanks, Fishy. I suspect what JMS might have intended was what Vacantlook mentioned. But it is an excellent point.
 
Possibly Talia did discover that Ivanova was a latent telepath. Talia certainly discovered that Lyta was in the brig.

Talia's debriefer may have decided that Psi Corps did not have any use for a latent adult telepath and that angering Earthforce would just make the mess worse. Not worth entering into the report sent to Bester.
 
Also bear in mind that, at least according to her, Lyta could keep the secret of Kosh despite the best efforts of PsiCorps. Which implies that secrets can be kept from telepaths. So maybe Ivanova managed to hide it.
 
I really doubt JMS was told to lay off the gay stuff, changed his arc to accomodate that, and then told lies and denied it.

As far as Delenn, being Androgenous or male in the Pilot and Season 1, JMS has commented several times that they couldn't get the voice right, and that's why he scrapped it. Why would he own up to Delenn originally being male (to turn female) and then lie about it? Wouldn't it be easier to just have never said she was meant to be a male in Season 1?
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Oh, I know it's plausible. The Minbari assassin from the Gathering sounded like a woman with a slowed down voice. Takashima said, "He's wired!" Still the doubt remains.

Also, yes JMS told US, the Usenet following fans about Delenn's androgeny but the majority of the viewing audience out in TV land would have had no idea.
 
Wouldn't it be easier to just have never said she was meant to be a male in Season 1?
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Had to quote you twice. A very likely reason would be because JMS was posting about the show over a year before production began. By the time The Gathering came out he had been calling Delenn a male for a long time.
 
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