This was just fun

[Joseph DeMartino]

There was an exchange on the newsgroup about interspecies mating and reproduction, which led to the question of G'Kar's offer of a "direct mating"* to Lyta, which led to a discussion whether or not the Narn government would pick up the tab for all the attempts to impregnate Lyta, which led to a question about whether or not the Narn government subsidized G'Kar's other extra-cirricular activies with Human females:

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> Surely they don't foot the bill for *all* those fluffers -- er, hm,
floozies -- that G'kar enjoys? < - Raven Woman

From: Narn Embassy to the Interstellar Alliance, Minbar
To: RW
Date: December 14, 2312 (Earth Standard)
Re: Your request for financial records of Narn Diplomatic Mission to
Babylon 5, 2257 to 2262 (ES)

While the IA "Freedom of Information Act" requires that we declassify some records from the period under discussion, all information pertaining to the late Ambassador G'Kar, of blessed memory, remains sensitive. Therefore we are unable to supply you with the information rather rudely requested in your letter quoted above. However, in the spirit of interstellar cooperation we have undertaken to review Ambassador G'Kar's expense reports for the period and can find no reference to anything resembling a "fluffer" or a "floozie". Ambassador G'Kar, as we're sure you know from your history, was a highly moral and deeply spiritual figure who embodied all that is best in the Narn species. He was pure of body, as well as pure of soul.

Indeed, the Human expression "cleanliness is next to godliness" might have been coined to describe Ambassador G'Kar. The only unusal items on his expense reports for the period you requested concern contracts for cleaning and laundry services for the Narn mission - which were much higher than for any other diplomatic establishment and seem to have required an unusual number of personnel. Perhaps the odd Human insistance on limiting employees of such services to females (about which the Ambassador informed us shortly after his arrival at Babylon 5) gave rise to the rumors you seem to have heard about. I have enclosed a facsimile of a typical expense report for your inspection. I trust this answers you question.

Sincerely,

Na'lon
Commercial Attache

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* (For the record I am of the opinion that it is impossible for any interspecies mating in the B5 universe to produce a pregnancy, much less viable off-spring, and that G'Kar was just using the "direct mating" idea as a way to get Lyta into bed - on the theory that she wouldn't know any better.)

 

[phoenixrising]

Thank you for the best laugh I had all day, Joe.

 

[Demon]

G'Kar was just using the "direct mating" idea as a way to get Lyta into bed - on the theory that she wouldn't know any better.

Hmm, now that's a goal a lot of the men around here would like to achieve :devil:

 

[Nancy]

Wasn't it said on B5 or JMS that inter-species mating could not produce off-spring? And didn't Delenn have trouble getting pregnant and/or pregnancy because of this (and she was mostly human)?

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Genetically Delenn had to be entirely Human, or the residual Minbari DNA had to consist of genes that are common to both species, or she would never have been able to get pregnant in the first place. She didn't have any problems that we were told about, either getting pregnant or with the pregnancy - it was just that everybody wondered if she could get pregnant and Franklin was concerned about all the unknowns involved. But then Franklin is always worrying about something.

OTOH we may deduce that it was hard for Delenn to become pregnant because she and Sheridan had no other off-spring that we're aware of. But whether this was because of the Chrysalis transformation and her unique situation, or because Delenn was simply one of those women who would have trouble getting pregnant under any circumstances, or indeed because Sheridan had a low sperm count (all that playing around with nukes may have taken a toll.) Maybe if Delenn had married Garibaldi they would have had 10 kids. (Of course, he and Lise only had one child. Either their is something in the water aboard B5 that causes near-sterility in Human males or the writer had something against kids and wanted to keep their numbers to an absolute minimum. )

And yeah, I'm pretty sure that somewhere or other JMS said that species could not interbreee without considerable technological intervention (primarily meaning things like in-vitro fertilization and gene splicing) in the B5 universe. He didn't want a lot of Human-whatever hybrids running around or a lot of interspecies relationships. As with time travel he wanted to use the idea one time and make it a major part of the story, not piss it away by turning it into a cliche and crutch for himself and the other writers. But I don't have an exact quote on file, and people are always arguing about this anyway, so I just mentioned what my position was.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Nancy]

But, if Delenn was entirely human, how come she still had part of her head crest?

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

But, if Delenn was entirely human, how come she still had part of her head crest?

That's why I said, "Genetically Delenn had to be entirely Human, or the residual Minbari DNA had to consist of genes that are common to both species..."

So she retained some "cosmetic" Minbari features (though even those are much-reduced.) In effect she is a Human with a slight mutation. Ever see pictures of the Elephant Man? Delenn deviates from normal human bone structure much less than John Merrick did (and much more fetchingly. ) It isn't like she has gills, or can breathe methane or has some radically non-Human trait. She's just a bonehead.

Besides, if she weren't 100% Human at the level of genes and chromosomes, John can't impregnate her - period. Humans and chimps share over 90% of their DNA in common, but you could never produce a Human-chimp hybrid - the number of chromosomes is different. And David Sheridan is quite Human, even in appearance, as we know from the Centauri Trilogy. Further indication that Delenn's eggs carry purely Human DNA, regardless of what is going on with her somatic cells.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Zathras]

I saw a news story recently about a 5-legged sheep. Every sheep I've ever seen had 4 legs, but the fact that this one has an extra leg growing out of its chest doesn't mean that it's not a sheep. Some human beings are born with 6 fingers on one hand, but it doesn't make them any less human. I think that the head crest is simply a surface trait (like an extra appendage). My high school geometry teacher was 4 1/2 feet tall and had one arm. He looked pretty strange, but still got married and produced average-looking children.

I suppose that the Chrysalis device changed Delenn's DNA structure completely, but was programmed to leave the bone crest in place. She was, after all, supposed to bring Humans and Minbari closer together.

 

[Zathras]

It isn't like she has gills, or can breathe methane or has some radically non-Human trait.

No, that would be Lyta.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

Active Minbari genes would produce substances involved in Minbari metabolism -- in all probability toxic to human metabolism, and vice versa.

Without a zillion extremely clever (and extremely inefficient) kludges to block countless pathways to poisoning, autoimmunity and other modes of internal conflict... such a person (meaning Delenn or Sinclair after their respective transformations) could not live. So the transformation had to be fairly complete.

<Zathras>Otherwise much, much kludging. Very bad.</Zathras>

However, one question remains. Valen left to his children something which arguably indicated his connection to Humans. What were those genetic elements?

Well... perhaps they were neutralized markers. Genes or parts of genes completely disabled, designed to carry on but do nothing (or do something assuredly safe). Perhaps the machine was programmed to leave around markers to identify the old genome.

Or perhaps, whoever threw it together was running out of time. Perhaps the construction of the Triluminary... got subcontracted to Shadows -- who were operating under the Shadow Public License "if it breaks, you get to keep the pieces".

So perhaps, having leftover stuff and delivery deadline five minutes away... the builder decided that wannabe Humans would get to keep a headbone -- and those becoming Minbari would get to keep a beard.

They probably didn't even smooth out the user interface, and presented the user some extra options, such as:

Please select your desired species.
a) Minbari
b) Human
c) Biig baad butterfly

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Some human beings are born with 6 fingers on one hand, but it doesn't make them any less human.

I had a similar story in the back of my mind as I wrote that. A boy in Central or South America, IIRC, was born with an extra foot growing out of his existing foot, right near the ankle. The toes and nails etc. were not completely defined or developed, but if in X-rays you could see the bones for all five toes and all the other bones that make up a complete foot, though most of them were stunted or otherwise distorted. When he was about 12 years old his story made headlines and an international aid group arranged for him to have surgery to remove the extra foot and rearrange the remaining bone and tissue so that his existing foot could support his weight and work normally.

No question that he was Human, fifteen toes and all.

(Or to repeat an old George Carlin joke: What has eleven legs, five eyes, two tails and no balls? Answer: My three cats. )

Regards,

Joe

 

[PillowRock]

(Or to repeat an old George Carlin joke: What has eleven legs, five eyes, two tails and no balls? Answer: My three cats. )

I thought that it was a mix of cats and dogs (though I don't remember which species was the majority).

 

[GKarsEye]

or the writer had something against kids and wanted to keep their numbers to an absolute minimum

No (or few) kids and he makes the hippest, baddest dude in the show a poon-hound. Is there any wonder I love JMS' writing?

but you could never produce a Human-chimp hybrid

Not with that negative attitude, young man.

Some human beings are born with 6 fingers on one hand, but it doesn't make them any less human.

But it does make them more creepy.

"My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed me father. Prepare to die."

 

[Demon]

Sheridan had a low sperm count (all that playing around with nukes may have taken a toll.)

And don't forget being dead. I doubt if that is good for the sperm count, either

"My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed me father. Prepare to die."

I do love that movie, and Mandy Patinkin in particular

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Inconceivable!

(Hey, it even fits the topic. )

Regards,

Joe

Never go up against a Scilian when death is on the line

 

[Zathras]

My high school geometry teacher was 4 1/2 feet tall and had one arm. He looked pretty strange, but still got married and produced average-looking children.

Funny Sidenote:
My high school geometry teacher was also the boys' Junior Varsity basketball coach. Even with a severe disadvantage in height and appendages, he was still the baddest thing on the court! He could consistently put the ball in through the hoop from practically anywhere on the floor (this side of half-court). My friend Jeremy was on the team and told me that no one wanted to guard Coach Boles when he practiced with them because he'd reach back and gouge them in the stomach with his stump-of-a left arm.

 

[Quagmire]

But what about Ligers?

No one ever said Davey could reproduce so maybe Delenn wasn't all human after all.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Yes, but no one ever said that "Davey" couldn't reproduce either as far as I have seen. The question of whether there is a Sheridan/Deleen grandchild never arose in the story.

What always intrigued me was the fact that, in becoming Valen, Sinclair retained no human appearance whatsoever, whereas Delenn retained the Minbari headbone.

Seems the triluminary/chrysalis is an intelligent beast that can tailor what it does to the situation at hand, namely ...

If Valen had arrived looking like anything other than pure-bred Minbari the Minbari would never have accepted him/B4 (as pointed out by Delenn in WWEII), whereas looking like a pure-bred Human would destroy any hope of Delenn being a bridge between the two peoples.

Intersting.

 

[Nancy]

Can't horses and donkeys mate? and they're not the same species are they?

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Can't horses and donkeys mate? and they're not the same species are they?

They are just barely not the same species, which is why they can produce (sterile) off-spring. So we're splitting hairs here. Horses and donkeys have 99.999% of their DNA in common - and even that is not enough for them to produce fertile off-spring. So what kind of sense does it make to believe that Delenn is "half Minbari" or "three quarters Minbari" and still capable of being impregnated by Sheridan. She comes from a different eco-system and is the product of billions of years of evolution that started with a different "first instance" than that which produced Sheridan. Her original DNA would and Sheridan's would be so far apart that each of them would have more DNA in commone with every other lifeform on their home planet, single-cell life on up, than they would with each other.

As Carl Sagan memorably said, with regard to Mr. Spock, "As a human you'd have a better chance of mating with a petunia than with a Vulcan."

Unless the Chrysalis went so far in making her Human as that it effectively makes no difference there could not be a kid. And that's why no other instance of interplanetary mating could take place.

Regards,

Joe