The Bag

[PsionTen]

Ok, to begin with, I really like this series. When I first heard the scuttlebut about it months ago, I thought it was doomed for failure. I was dead wrong. The wasteland motif has been a part of science fiction from the very beginning, with Mad Max probably being the standout -- as far as movies go, though I personally prefer 'Waterworld' (don't ask). Of course, 'Planet of the Apes' could probably fit into this category as well, in which case I would say that it is the standout. Anyway, one of the problems I've always had with this particular sub-genre is it's utter hopelessness. It typically shows the worst aspects of mankind (our tendency to blow ourselves up) or struggling to survive like the animals that we are. Anyway, Jeremiah isn't about that ... it's about hope.

With that said, I have to say that 'The Bag' is the first episode that I've had a problem with.

The main reason I didn't like it is because of Jeremiah. He's all over the place in this episode. His first reaction upon seeing the pregnant woman on the roadway is to get her to a doctor. When he finally spots one, he's immediately skeptical of the guy... "So, how does one become a doctor?" -- Which is my problem. He knows damn well that there are no doctors anymore. How could there be? Instead of being happy to find someone who's at least a step above a witch-doctor, he continues to berate and pester the guy. When the bag is stolen, he then does a 180 and tears into the doc because he IS a real doctor, but is paralyized by self-pity and doubt -- most of which was caused by Jeremiah's original skepticism. All of that brings me to something that Channe brought up a week ago.

The character of Jeremiah. First off, I think that the character of Kurdy is better devolped. Kurdy is pretty much the everyman ... his first instinct is survival, but he will help out others on occassion (when his life isn't in danger or when Jeremiah isn't there to force his hand) He doesn't like to focus on the past and has a level head on his shoulders. Jeremiah simply makes no sense to me at all. His altruistic nature is puzzling in this setting and he's often a contradiction. In last week's episode, for example, Kurdy is stunned that Jeremiah doesn't seem to care one way or the other about the hungry pregnant woman on the street. Perhaps he knew that Kurdy would help her out, but it still goes against his character. Then there was the episode from two weeks ago where he blows up and beats the crap out that big doofus that wants his chair. The guy is definitely an enigma.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Actually at first Jermiah was skeptical. It was once he saw how the doc was looking over the pregnant lady that he realized he pretty much didnt know a lot about being a doctor.
As for not helping that lady last week. He did that because Kurdy kept telling him how they shouldnt help every person they come across. So he didnt help to see what reaction he would get out of kurdy.

Capt

 

[PsionTen]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr> It was once he saw how the doc was looking over the pregnant lady that he realized he pretty much didnt know a lot about being a doctor.
<hr></blockquote>

That's my whole point. There aren't any doctors anymore. There aren't any medical schools and not many books (apparently). Here's a dude that's passing out antibiotics and other medication and Jeremiah was skeptical of the guy. This guy was the closest thing to doctor that any of these people were going to see, so why get on his case about not being a "real" doctor?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr> As for not helping that lady last week. He did that because Kurdy kept telling him how they shouldnt help every person they come across. So he didnt help to see what reaction he would get out of kurdy.
<hr></blockquote>

Yes, I raised this as an explanation myself, but Jeremiah actually didn't seem to care at all from what I saw -- didn't he just walk away and not pay them any mind? Kurdy told him later that he helped the girl. I just don't understand the guy at all, but that may be what JMS wants, I don't know.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well the guy said that his father was a doctor and he learned from him. Which in some places isnt uncommon if he knew a little bit about medicine. So it would make him technically a doctor, but it ended up he didnt know much. There have to be books around. They didnt die from the big death

As for the Jerimiah ignoring the lady. I have seen many times in real life where people to make others think about what they say do the same exact thing Jermiah did

Capt

 

[DrRingDing]

just thought you might like to know that the show really gets interesting with Firewall.. like i've said a dozen times before... but one thing i noticed as i viewed the production cuts was that my least favorite episodes were all written by sam egan. not as a cut to him, but his episodes so far have been weaker, IMO.

take a look at lyta's site and see which ones were written by JMS, and those episodes were my personal favorites..

maybe as more Sam Egan shows are shown, y'all will find yourselves disagreeing or agreeing with me... i'm curious to know..
-di doctor-

 

[channe]

I haven't seen the last two episodes, yet, but I've heard some things about "Firewall" myself... not that the show isn't already interesting.

I love this show. Already. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[PsionTen]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>but it ended up he didnt know much <hr></blockquote>

Actually, it seemed to me that he did know a lot, thanks to his father's medical book. It was my impression that he simply didn't have any confidence in himself, thanks in no small part to Jeremiah.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>There have to be books around. They didnt die from the big death
<hr></blockquote>

Yes, books seem to be pretty resistant to viruses. The pilot, however, made clear that once the adults bit the dust, these kids went wild and burned down schools. My guess would be that they burned everything that they didn't like -- for many kids, that would be schools, books, desks... etc. It'd also be my guess that many people in the world of Jeremiah can't read even if they wanted to. Those who were too young to learn probably didn't make it a point to learn later on -- no doubt survival took up most of their time.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr> I have seen many times in real life where people to make others think about what they say do the same exact thing Jermiah did
<hr></blockquote>

And I have seen many times in real life where people simply don't care and do the exact same thing that Jeremiah did. My point was that I have no idea which is which because I don't know anything about this guy's motivations, other than the fact that he wants to get to this Valhalla Sector. To be honest, it seems to me that there isn't much he won't do to find out about it -- including interrupting a dying man's last moments with his beloved. How selfish is that?

The fact that he feels guilty over his brother's death might explain some of his behavior, I don't know. I'll just keep watching.

 

[Lyta]

Originally posted by PsionTen:
<font color=yellow>The main reason I didn't like it is because of Jeremiah. He's all over the place in this episode.</font color=yellow>

I don't know ... I saw it differently than you did. The pregant woman needed a doctor and there are probably people who do try and help people when they are sick. It would be necessary to have those kind of people in this world if they are to survive. The problem is whether or not you will find a true "doctor" or just one who scams people. I think Jeremiah was hoping it was the former but as he observed Reese, he began to question why he calls himself a "doctor". Also, finding someone "a step above a witch-doctor" could be more dangerous than someone who is really trying to practice medicine. Jeremiah didn't tear into Reese because he -was- a real doctor but because he was the only -real hope- those people had of ever having one.

As for the development of Jeremiah and Kurdy's characters ... I don't actually remember what Channe said but I do agree to some extent. Kurdy is a simpler char which is played so well by Warner. One can't deny how well he comes across on the screen. Jeremiah is complex and basicially fncked up in certain ways. Still, he is a noble character and tries to do the right thing. I think he is -supposed- to be an enigma and that is part of the fun of watching this series. I love Kurdy but it is figuring out how Jeremiah ticks that makes me come back again and again. Heh, that and what the hell the Valhalla Sector is and the possible return of the BigD. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Recoil]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by DrRingDing:
<font color=yellow>just thought you might like to know that the show really gets interesting with Firewall.. like i've said a dozen times before... but one thing i noticed as i viewed the production cuts was that my least favorite episodes were all written by sam egan. not as a cut to him, but his episodes so far have been weaker, IMO.

take a look at lyta's site and see which ones were written by JMS, and those episodes were my personal favorites..

maybe as more Sam Egan shows are shown, y'all will find yourselves disagreeing or agreeing with me... i'm curious to know..
-di doctor-</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
I actually have been taking note as to who rights which episode, and I would have to agree. The JMS episodes just seem better to me. I noticed "The Bag" was written by Sam Egan before I watched it. I thought it was good, but not as good as the previous episodes. I also read that Firewall is going to be a good one, and its on in 2 weeks so I cant wait. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

I also am a regular to Lyta's Jeremiah page. Some good info on there. Its like the Lurkers Guide for Jeremiah. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[PsionTen]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>. I think Jeremiah was hoping it was the former but as he observed Reese, he began to question why he calls himself a "doctor". Also, finding someone "a step above a witch-doctor" could be more dangerous than someone who is really trying to practice medicine. Jeremiah didn't tear into Reese because he -was- a real doctor but because he was the only -real hope- those people had of ever having one.
<hr></blockquote>

Hmm, maybe I remember the episode wrong, but I distinctly remember Jeremiah saying that they needed to get the pregnant woman to a "doctor." I don't think there was anything unusual about Reese calling himself a doctor, since Jeremiah was looking for a "doctor." I think that your point about people scamming other people is probably right, especially when you consider Reese's brother doing his best frontier hustler routine. My point about finding someone "a step above witch-doctor" is that no one really has any sort of medical knowledge in this world -- except for your basic first aid skills. And it really makes no difference if people really want to help other people or not -- if they don't have any medical knowledge, they'll only wind up doing more harm than good in the long run. Given that, it seems to me that Reese was the best possible person they could hope to find, yet Jeremiah was all on his case. I mean this guy had medication, seemed to care about others, watched his father work -- what else did Jeremiah want? A degree hanging from an office wall?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Kurdy is a simpler char(acter) which is played so well by Warner. <hr></blockquote>

I agree that Warner is doing an excellent job, probably even more so than Perry. I don't think I've seen Perry change his facial expression once -- then again, that probably works into the stoic nature of the character. But I have to disagree with your point about Kurdy being a "simplier character." I actually think his character is much more interesting/dynamic than that of Jeremiah. From what I've seen, Jeremiah basically has two motivations -- finding Valhalla Sector and dealing with his brother's death -- which drive his actions (though he still does some things that make no sense to me). I'm basically clueless as to Kurdy's motivations however. He is, in one sense, the everyman character, but not everyman would follow Jeremiah all across the countryside getting into one dangerous scenario after the next -- I certainly wouldn't. I'm not even certain why Kurdy came to Jeremiah's aid in the pilot, given the fact that he only knew the guy for half-a-day and had to go up against an army to save him.

Though Jeremiah's character fascinates me, its actually Kurdy that keeps me coming back for more.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I happen to like both Kurdy and Jeremiah. Both characters seems to be people with good hearts, that would sacrifice themselves to help someone else. Kurdy talks and acts like he doesn’t care, but when it hits the fan, he does everything he can. He’s not a “simple” character. Rather he has many layers and he is very well portrayed by Warner.

Jeremiah has a more noble appearance where he speaks out openly against the oppression of justice. But just as someone said, he is “fucked up” in some ways. He hasn’t always got the wisdom to do the right thing in a right way. There actually Kurdy often seems to be wiser, more gentle and understanding. Jeremiah has a pretty obsessive personality, and I find that fascinating, to a degree. The way he has portrayed it this far I find it interesting. But I do hope that he doesn’t crack sooner or later, but rather that we can follow him on an emotional journey towards healing his soul. And it is also going to be interesting to see if Luke Perry has the acting talent to pull it of!

We shall se.
/Com

 

[channe]

Guys - guys!

I think there's one thing that you HAVE to remember while you're talking about this stuff. Yeah, Jeremiah said something to the point of "we have to get her to a doctor," but for Jeremiah, the word "doctor" means something entirely different than what our concept of a doctor is. Their society has been in place for long enough but is still new enough to have two definitions of a word and actively refer to both. Therefore, the confusion of the word "doctor." I think Jeremiah was referring to someone with enough knowledge to help, even if only a tiny bit.

Healing skills would be highly prized in this world, I think... there are going to be "doctors," even though if their knowledge is only that of first aid or what they've seen in books.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PsionTen:
<font color=yellow>With that said, I have to say that 'The Bag' is the first episode that I've had a problem with.

The main reason I didn't like it is because of Jeremiah. He's all over the place in this episode. His first reaction upon seeing the pregnant woman on the roadway is to get her to a doctor. When he finally spots one, he's immediately skeptical of the guy... "So, how does one become a doctor?" -- Which is my problem. He knows damn well that there are no doctors anymore. How could there be? Instead of being happy to find someone who's at least a step above a witch-doctor, he continues to berate and pester the guy. When the bag is stolen, he then does a 180 and tears into the doc because he IS a real doctor, but is paralyized by self-pity and doubt -- most of which was caused by Jeremiah's original skepticism. </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

So.. I finaly got to see “The Bag”. And I must say that I am was a bit surprised at how much I liked it. Because I had read in this thread before and the episode didn’t sound that good. But I liked it much better then “Sail beyond the…”

Actually I don’t agree with anything you wrote above. First of all, of course Jeremiah knows that there is no real doctors anymore, and of course he knows that this man can’t work miracles. The reason Jeremiah is tearing into the doctor in the beginning is not that much that the doc doesn’t have a degree in medicine but rather it is a reaction against the way he let his brother promote him. His brother is really the big problem here. He talks about his little brother as thou he was some kind of supernatural miracle worker. Of course that is not true, but it gets peoples hopes up. Sometimes false hope. And when Jeremiah realise the difference between the “commercial” and reality he straightens the guy up. If one give people hope, you have responsibility to see it all through.

I cant see anything remotely wrong with that.

But its not the doc who is doing all those things, someone might say. No, it’s the brother, he only wants to milk the villages dry. But the doc lets him do it, he doesn’t protest, he doesn’t refuse. It is very hard to step up to your elder brother in that kind of relationship, but you have to. And actually the doc has a responsibility to do so, or he is as guilty as the big brother. It is hard words and a hard truth. But it is the truth.

After that Jeremiah attacks the docs self pity. Self pity not caused by Jeremiah but by the lack of love from his dead father. There’s nothing wrong in doing that either. It is when we humans get to egocentric that we start hurting people around us. Growling in self pity or going on an ego trip is just different sides of the same coin. So I don’t see anything wrong with Jeremiah straightening up the doc on that either. Because he knows that the doc can be so much more and so much better if he stops hiding behind his lies, his brother and the bag.

So, the lies are stripped away. The bag is gone. His brother goes away with Kurdy. Now, stripped of the three things he has been hiding behind and relying on for so many years. J now tries to encourage the doc, because he has seen that the doc could be something much greater. And the doc actually manages, without the bag, without the lies, and without his brother. The baby is born and finally he can stand on his own two feet.

I do agree that J could have done some of the things he did this episode with a little bit more empathy and wisdom. But he saw what was wrong and he acted. He said the words of truth that was hard to hear, but it all gave good fruit in the end. Can you say that you are always doing the same things in your lifes? It is a hard path to walk to be a truth teller. When you tell the truth either people will repent and there will come great things out of it. Or they will harden their hearts and walk the other way. You need great wisdom, so that you can speak the truth in a humble yet strong way. Wisdom I hope that the character of Jeremiah will gain as the series progress.

/Com

 

[PsionTen]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr> The reason Jeremiah is tearing into the doctor in the beginning is not that much that the doc doesn’t have a degree in medicine but rather it is a reaction against the way he let his brother promote him. <hr></blockquote>

Yeah, but I'm not sure if Jeremiah actually came right out and said this. I think he did see the guy's brother and assumed that they were both charlatans, but once he actually saw the guy work, you'd think his suspicions would have been quelled. I mean who the hell else is handing out medication to people, obviously not anyone in that town.

But to the larger issues you raise, I'm not entirely sure that these guys (brother included) were charlatans. It seemed to me that the doc was much more knowledgable than anyone else and did all he possibly could to help others. You might have a point about him taking advantage of others by asking for payment for his services, but thats really no different than the system we have now. If you don't have any medical insurance, in many cases hospitals will turn you away. You might also have a point about the doc not sticking around to see what happens to his patients, but again thats really no different than the system now.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr> Self pity not caused by Jeremiah but by the lack of love from his dead father. <hr></blockquote>

What I gathered from this episode was that the doctor -- even though his medical knowledge was superior than the average person's (in this world at least) -- he wasn't at all confident in his own abilities. Jeremiah's comments simply feed into that and the guy just broke down... basically feeling sorry for himself. I think Jeremiah's point then was to tell the doc to get over himself because everybody's hurting and that he (the doc) could actually help people. But, if Jeremiah really believed that, then why tear into the doc in the first place? And if it was solely because of the guy's brother, then why not say it point blank, or to at least confront the brother on it? I dunno, its been a couple of weeks since I've seen this episode, so maybe Jeremiah did all this and I can't remeber.

I'm glad that you liked the episode, but it only raised more questions about Jeremiah's character for me.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PsionTen:
<font color=yellow>But to the larger issues you raise, I'm not entirely sure that these guys (brother included) were charlatans. It seemed to me that the doc was much more knowledgable than anyone else and did all he possibly could to help others. You might have a point about him taking advantage of others by asking for payment for his services, but thats really no different than the system we have now. </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

The doc wasn't a charlatan. He really wanted to help people. but the brother only saw it as a means to milk people dry of their money and then split when the shit hit the fan. The doc was really a good guy, but he had a responsibility to stand up against his brother.

Of course they had to charge something for their services, but their is a difference between having a fee and milking people.

And actually. I don't like the system we have now. At least not the system you got in the US. As you said, hospitals can actually turn you away. Here in sweden everyone is guaranteed a place at the hospital. There are some fees, but there are high cost caps. So if it costs above a certain amount the taxpayers will pay for you.


<font color=yellow><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>What I gathered from this episode was that the doctor -- even though his medical knowledge was superior than the average person's (in this world at least) -- he wasn't at all confident in his own abilities. Jeremiah's comments simply feed into that and the guy just broke down... basically feeling sorry for himself. I think Jeremiah's point then was to tell the doc to get over himself because everybody's hurting and that he (the doc) could actually help people. But, if Jeremiah really believed that, then why tear into the doc in the first place? And if it was solely because of the guy's brother, then why not say it point blank, or to at least confront the brother on it? I dunno, its been a couple of weeks since I've seen this episode, so maybe Jeremiah did all this and I can't remeber.

I'm glad that you liked the episode, but it only raised more questions about Jeremiah's character for me.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Actually, I think that J did make it pretty clear on many occasions that he didn't like the way the brother was handling things. For example he did tell the brother to shut up on many occasions, because he was talking to the doc, not him. J wanted to hear the docs opinions, not the brothers, and ask the doc about his view on the responsibilities. He could have done it in a wiser facion thou. Luckely it worked out ok. The doc was a good and honest man enough to do the right thing ones the lies of his life cought up with him. But in the unwise way J handled it, he could just as well have had the doc running away from there.

Yep. J is a complex and to me interesting character. But I would like to see him smile ones in a while... /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

See ya! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

/Com

 

[PsionTen]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr> Of course they had to charge something for their services, but their is a difference between having a fee and milking people.<hr></blockquote>

I'm not even sure what would be considered "milking" in the world of Jeremiah. I dunno, a few dozen cans of tuna for some antibiotics doesn't sound all that unreasonable to me.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr> And actually. I don't like the system we have now. At least not the system you got in the US.<hr></blockquote>

I don't like it either, but my point was that there are problems with every system.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Here in sweden everyone is guaranteed a place at the hospital. <hr></blockquote>

Yes, but is everyone guaranteed equal medical care? If there's a procedure that's 90% effective, but costs $200,000+ (I only know U.S. money, sorry) and a procedure that's 65% effective, but costs $50,000+ -- which one will the average person in Sweden get? No doubt there are procedures so costly that your "universal" system simply can't cover them all... especially cutting edge, experimental or costlier, more effective, alternatives. And you can't really lump all of America into the same boat. In the state in which I live, for example, we do have "universal" health care for all residents. Just like in your country, everybody is guaranteed a bed..... Unfortunately, everyone is not guaranteed equal medical care. And, just like in your country, the rich will get the best medical care possible.... the middle class will get the best cost-effective medical care possible.... and the poor will get whatever they can. Many people think the system my state has is actually worse than it was before. Why? Because there is an ever-growning number of people that the state is now responsible for; HMOs are continually dropping out of the program because the state can't afford to pay them a reasonable rate; The level of care is often substandard because of the state rate; Thousands of people who should not be in the program "sneak in" and further drain state funds; Many life-saving procedures and medicines aren't available anyway, because it would essentially break the system if they did.


In essence, they argue why not simply be true to what nobody really wants to own up to -- the level of medical care available to you, like almost everything else in life, goes in direct porportion with how much money you have -- and that's true in Sweden, America, Canada and Timbuktu.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr> Actually, I think that J did make it pretty clear on many occasions that he didn't like the way the brother was handling things. For example he did tell the brother to shut up on many occasions, because he was talking to the doc, not him. J wanted to hear the docs opinions, not the brothers, and ask the doc about his view on the responsibilities<hr></blockquote>

J didn't seem to differentiate between the brothers at all to me. He never said, "Hey man, don't be rippin' people off" or anything like that. It just seemed to me that one minute J is on the guy's case for not being an "authentic" doctor and the next minute he's on the guy's case for being an "authentic" doctor and not doing anything. He simply doesn't make sense to me sometimes.