The Arrogant Sheridan

[GKarsEye]

I guess it comes down to human capacity. Would people with such uncommon inborn power be willing to forego its use to benefit society. I still have to believe it is no different than being able shoot, stab, or beat someone up...........we can all wield that power, but we chose not to, for most of us anyway. It would just be a question of whether the same standard could be setup in their society. At this point, after all that has gone under the bridge, it would be harder, to be sure. But there are many people in real life who have access to things and information that they could use on others......and many show self control. I don't believe it is different enough in this case to write the telepaths off from fitting in without doing any more harm than any small percentage of bad people commonly do with other resources.

The difference between telepathy and physical violence is that telepathy can be done without anybody knowing. Your mind can be read without you knowing, you can't get shot without knowing.

And we have cops to punish and protect against those that do physical harm. What about telepath crimes? Would we need some sort of... oh, I dunno... "psi" cops?


As for Minbari, keep in mind that we only see the "good" telepaths. I also think it's interesting that they're so quiet, almost sedated. We can make up our own stories as to how they handle telepaths. Just because they give humans a whole thing about how they want to serve doesn't mean it's true.

 

[GKarsEye]

But he did it, made the decision based solely on the MATH of it.......and as for doctor Franklin "supporting" the tactic.......I have a pretty clear memory of Franklin in the bunker on Mars, still going round and round with himself about it.........for my take, I think he was simply following the order, made binding by his loyalty to, and trust of, Sheridan. I don't think he ever would have supported it. But he trusted in the "moral authority of his CO".

I think you're selling Franklin short. He's willing to go up against a CO at the drop of a hat. He did it during the Minbari war (an act which I even find hard to agree with) and against Sinclair in Believers. Franklin's most striking character trait is his high ethical standards, the highest of any on the show.

 

[KoshFan]

Ah, but he tangled with his CO during the Minbari War and with Sinclair in Believers before he'd met himself. I think Franklin may have had to reevaluate his moral compass.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Would you people honestly be able to "trust" telepaths?

If everyone I distrust was drugged or locked up, there wouldn't be enough of us left to guard them.

This is exactly the whole point of the telepath issue in the B5 universe- it is practically impossible to have a peaceful understanding coexistence between people who can read minds and those who can't. I'd be scared shitless around them, or if I were one, what's to stop me from reading minds?

Byron thought coexistence was unworkable, thus his demand for a planet for telepaths. This is just another reason why mundanes should have thought that reasonable. If telepathy ever actually became as common as it is in the B5 universe, the only real solution would be to place the teep gene into all developing fetuses, or otherwise turn the whole population telepathic, within a generation or two.

As you all condemn Sheridan's actions, what would happen had he not used the teepsicles? Would Clark win? And then what- more thousands of innocent civilians killed for political gain?

I know you're speaking to more than me here, but just for the record, I don't condem Sheridan's use of the teepsicles.


There would be much need of rules, restrictions, and policing, if numbers of teeps were to live in a mundane society. So, there was a need for some of the functions that PsyCorps carried out. BUT there was no need for them to be a brutal, fascist organization.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Seriously, can you really see trusting a teep? They have unfair advantages in all walks of life. That kind of power corrupts. I think that teeps and mundanes are fundamentally incompatible.

So, should blind people have the same attitude towards the sighted? Should the stupid not trust the smart? Advantages that come with your DNA are neither fair, nor unfair. They just are.

 

[2aMageing]

Would you people honestly be able to "trust" telepaths?

If everyone I distrust was drugged or locked up, there wouldn't be enough of us left to guard them.

........Boy I hear that...........

 

[deaded]

I still have to believe it is no different than being able shoot, stab, or beat someone up...........we can all wield that power, but we chose not to, for most of us anyway.

There is a HUGE difference. ANY of us can wield a gun or knife but only teeps can read minds. In addition, telepathy is essentially a concealed weapon and in our country it's still illegal to cary a consealed weapon (or to BE a concealed weapon ). If we could become telepathic by choice I don't think it would be an issue. Look at the way the rest of the world is afraid of the USA because of our nuclear (or nucular) weapons and our economic power. North Korea is a prime example. They can't handle the fact that we have a weapon that could bring them to their knees. Sure we can say that we won't use it but how do they really know? How can they trust us after we invaded Iraq? I'm not interested in starting a political discussion here but I do think it's a good analogy.

you all condemn Sheridan's actions, what would happen had he not used the teepsicles? Would Clark win? And then what- more thousands of innocent civilians killed for political gain?

No, I don't condem it. I say it's a wrong thing to do but if you read my initial post you can see that I question whether it might actually still be the right thing to do overall. The world, in fact the GALAXY, might have been worse off had he not made that decision. Also, as sleepy_shadow points out it is unlikely Clark would have won the war if Sheridan did not do what he did; had he blown the Earthforce ships out of the sky. Of course that would have essentially left the earth defenseless and probably susceptable to the Drak's planet killer a couple years down the road (but he didn't know this at the time). What he DID know was that humanity on Mars would have likely been obliterated. Still, destroying all of Earth's defenses is not in it's best interest in any case, no matter who wins. I could not have made the decision Sheridan did; I don't think I ever even would have thought of it. But in the end it may have saved the world and in some sense the right decision. Still, the ends do not always justify the means and that is a moral thread that has run through the whole 5 year series.

It would have been like Lincoln throwing 30 sick civilians onto the battle field as connon fodder to avoid killing 1000 rebel soldiers...............it doesn't sound acceptable either way

Again, excellent analogy

However, should an individual gain my trust -- via repeated mutually beneficial cooperation, despite opportunity to cheat -- I would trust that individual, to level which I consider adequate in light of previous experience. Even if their set of abilities should differ from mine

Agreed. But every single human teep in the whole B5 story has betrayed the trust of normals, again supporting my theory that mundanes and teeps are mutually incompatable.

I think you're selling Franklin short. He's willing to go up against a CO at the drop of a hat. He did it during the Minbari war (an act which I even find hard to agree with) and against Sinclair in Believers. Franklin's most striking character trait is his high ethical standards, the highest of any on the show

Agreed. Why Franklin allowed this I will never know.

So, should blind people have the same attitude towards the sighted?

These are exceptions rather than the rule. What we are dealing with with respect to teeps is a whole new breed of humans and a whole new set of rules. With the blind or stupid they are doing the best to fit into our society. With teeps they come to our society with an unfair advantage and the ability to maniuplate and take advantage of us without our knowlege. We don't have acess to the private thoughts and secrets of the blind or dumb. You are suggesting that the whole human race is handicapped and I don't think people are willing to accept that. I'm not.

 

[2aMageing]

But he did it, made the decision based solely on the MATH of it.......and as for doctor Franklin "supporting" the tactic.......I have a pretty clear memory of Franklin in the bunker on Mars, still going round and round with himself about it.........for my take, I think he was simply following the order, made binding by his loyalty to, and trust of, Sheridan. I don't think he ever would have supported it. But he trusted in the "moral authority of his CO".

I think you're selling Franklin short. He's willing to go up against a CO at the drop of a hat. He did it during the Minbari war (an act which I even find hard to agree with) and against Sinclair in Believers. Franklin's most striking character trait is his high ethical standards, the highest of any on the show.

Yeah, I would agree with that assessment of Franklin. But Sheridan wasn't just some generic commanding officer. They went all the way back to the early Minbari War, if the movie was cannon. I think Franklin would be as likely to follow sheridan's lead as anybody's.

And KoshFan draws an intreging point out ......this Franklin is fundamantally different in his approach now.........perhaps more desiring to serve than before. Maybe. In the least, we know that some part of him sees him bucking command and splitting as a kind of running away. I don't know if we really have enough of a pattern to the current Franklin to add any motiviation to his actions other than what we see him actually say and do.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

So, should blind people have the same attitude towards the sighted?

These are exceptions rather than the rule. What we are dealing with with respect to teeps is a whole new breed of humans and a whole new set of rules. With the blind or stupid they are doing the best to fit into our society. With teeps they come to our society with an unfair advantage and the ability to maniuplate and take advantage of us without our knowlege. We don't have acess to the private thoughts and secrets of the blind or dumb. You are suggesting that the whole human race is handicapped and I don't think people are willing to accept that. I'm not.

Well, teeps are exceptions, not the rule. I dare say sighted people can put stuff over on most blind people, if they want to, and try. But, from a numbers standpoint, probably the best analogy is people of average, or lesser intelligence, compared to those with IQs in the top 1%. Those most intelligent certainly have an advantage over the normals, and could use it for nefarious reasons, without our knowledge, if they wanted to. But, we don't ostracize them, or dumb them down with drugs. Well, not to the extreme it was done with teeps in B5, anyway. I would also point out that it isn't necessary to have any superior abilities to take unfair advantage of people without their knowledge. Have you heard of identity theft?

My point is, that if teeps existed, they would still be human, and entitled to all the rights and considerations that normal humans are entitled to. But, I admit that there would be a need for special rules, and enforcement. I wasn't really trying to suggest that all humans are handicapped, just that all have differing abilities, and all are entitled to equal treatment. But, actually, I DO think it accurate to consider all, or at very least, almost all, humans handicapped in some way. It may be as small as a phobia, colorblindness, or a bad temper, or as serious as Steven Hawking, but most of us have some disability, however small.

 

[deaded]

But, from a numbers standpoint, probably the best analogy is people of average, or lesser intelligence, compared to those with IQs in the top 1%. Those most intelligent certainly have an advantage over the normals, and could use it for nefarious reasons, without our knowledge, if they wanted to.

Hey, I'm in the top 1% and you don't see me trying to take advantage of YOU, do you?

(sorry, that was too juicy to pass up, lol )

But seriously, look at the Technomages. They have a similar but different unfair advantage that is not available to the public. They too are distrusted and ostracized except in the cases where one acts as a benefactor of a community. They, however, seem to understand and accept that normals are afraid of them and stay out of the way. It help that their numbers are small. More importantly they CHOSE to become that way and knew what they were getting into.

 

[2aMageing]

Ah, but I know of no time period when the Technomages were herded into an organization that told them what they could and could not do, how to think, who to trust.....etc......I think the Technomages make a GREAT example.......of what telepaths could be like without the unreasonable forces that be, pressing on them..........

 

[deaded]

Yes, however the Technomages were able to adequately police themselves. Plus they did not grow up with chips on their shoulder. Maybe they were more successful because 1) They were 'self made', and 2) Because there were so few of them? I still think that all three parties, normals, teeps, and mages realize that coexistence is impossible. I also don't think it's as simple as blaming the normals. After all it was the teeps who created Psi Corps as well as the rules, not the normals, so despite their fears I can't really see blaming the normals. They "herded" themselves, albeit this was a pre-emptive action as it would have occurred anyway but under the control of the normals.

I'm going to have to re-read the Psi Corps/Bester trilogy; Especially the first one.

--As much as I loved Galen it's time to have my own avatar--

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Hey, I'm in the top 1% and you don't see me trying to take advantage of YOU, do you?

Exactly my point. If you are clever enough, you could take advantage of me without me seeing it. Of course, you might not see me taking advantage of you, either.

I haven't read any of the novels, but in the TV show, it seemed that mundanes had a hand in bringing about the existence of PsyCorps, even though the teeps are now 'self-policing.'

 

[2aMageing]

I haven't read any of the novels, but in the TV show, it seemed that mundanes had a hand in bringing about the existence of PsyCorps, even though the teeps are now 'self-policing.'

This was my understanding as well, also not having read any follow up novels.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

In crude terms... I think the difference was... that even if they didn't know the full deal... technomages volunteered for the ride.

They knew their implants would be tools and weapons -- assisting and extending some of their abilities notably beyond unenhanced peers.

They knew: once the merger was done, there would be no undoing of it -- even with their technology. They considered, trained, were evaluated by peers with a critical mind ("dare we reveal our secrets to this person?").

Finally, technomages could survive with less society... beyond the reach of each other (as well as less advanced hegemonies and civilizations)... travel unseen, withdraw, manage alone. They were... more independent.

-------

In crude and simplifying terms... technomages got what they wanted (more or less, considering the givers of their gifts)... while telepaths were simply born into a role... often an unsuitable role... but a role they couldn't retreat from.

They were born with a weapon they could not drop... but still equally dependent on society. Oppositely, technomages picked up a weapon by choice... a weapon impossible to drop, but one which made them less dependent. Except of course dependence on Shadows, on whose technology depended the sustainability of technomage kind.

 

[deaded]

I haven't read any of the novels, but in the TV show, it seemed that mundanes had a hand in bringing about the existence of PsyCorps, even though the teeps are now 'self-policing.'

This was my understanding as well, also not having read any follow up novels.

I won't say any more then so as not to spoil the books for you but you've GOT to read the Psi Corps trilogy. They are great books and will explain why this is as much the fault of the teeps as it is the normals, if not more so.

 

[RW7427]

Yeah, I'm working on book 2 of the Psi Corp trilogy, and I'm seeing what shaped Bester into the man he was on B5.

 

[Recoil]

Originally posted by KoshFan

So Sheridan thinks to himself, "If I am certain to die on Z'ha'dum, yet I'm alive in a future in which Centauri Prime is ruined because of an incomplete victory, then if I die in a blaze of glory at Z'ha'dum, doing as much damage to the Shadows as possible, maybe I can prevent that future and win a complete victory." After all, accepting Anna's invitation is a perfect opportunity to get hidden weapons to Z'ha'dum, and we know full well that hidden nuclear devices are Sheridan's favorite weapon.

Actually, I think your logic here is wrong. I think Delenn's message to him in the time rift wasn't so much a deciding factor...but one that re-inforced it. As GKE said above, his reason for going was a tactical one, and he knew he was going into a trap, but it was for the right reasons.

But as to Delenn's warning in the time rift...here is how I think he probably thought about it.

a) He saw a future where the Shadow War was won...but Centauri Prime was devastated 20 years later.

b) Delenn warned him NOT TO GO to Z'Ha'Dum. Her entire dialogue up to that point was personal advice: "Live your life. I seen in your eyes innocense long lost...etc" not advice about what happened to hurt Centauri Prime. If in the timeflash, it was a future where he DIDNT go to Z'Ha'Dum...then why would Delenn warn him not to go? He didnt go the first time right! So logically, in that future, he went. Also logically in that future...he was alive at least 20 years later. So Delenn's warning, given her context, was probably more of a personal warning.

c) So in Sheridans place and his point of view, he probably thought he would survive, and that this move WOULD help end the Shadow War.

I think Sheridan's failing was forgetting about the future with Centauri Prime, and not paying as close attention to the Centauri as he could have --- especially a year or so later when they were being framed.

But his logic for going to Z'Ha'Dum seemed clearly the way to end the war.

At least that is how I would have looked at it. And as far as his confidence when he came back? From the timeflash he knew the war would end. He knew he would be victorious. Because when he went to Z'Ha'Dum and lived, it just proved that the future was true. Nothing like that knowledge to help boost your confidence. That IMO is one of the main reasons he was so sure of himself, and after meeting Lorien, how could he not be sure of what he was doing?