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Spoilers~~The great machine vs. the eye

S

sassy

Regular
If you haven't read the technomage book number 3 turn back now!

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> The only difference i noticed is that the eye ALTERS the person..and makes that person want to do evil..but other than that, aren't they the same? </font></td></tr></table>



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I really don't think I am PMSing..
 
One Great Difference:

The Great machine will only accept a Willing volunteer.
One motivated by a desire to Serve the greater Good.
Draal's job is essentially to be a Guardian, and wait for the proper moment to turn the technology of the Great machine over to the younger races.
His "reward" is the opportunity to use the machine's abilities to explore the universe and learn everything he can.


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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
 
At first glance I couldn't see a great deal of similarity, but on thinking it over they are both powered by one living being, not necessarily of the same race.

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> The Eye is controlled by a powerful technomage and appears to control everything in the Shadows' domain, including the central operating cores of the ships. He also controls Z'ha'Dum and in that area there is a similarity with the Great Machine which controls the planet and the airspace around it. We are never told whether Weirdon went into the Eye willingly but we do know that Draal volunteered to take over. </font></td></tr></table>

I never thought about this before but I do see the similarity. I wonder if JMS knew what he was doing.

crazy.gif
crazy.gif


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I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
 
<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>weirden didn't go voluntarily. she was betrayed by a 'friend'.

also, the eye and the great machine also extends the persons life that is in it. </font></td></tr></table>

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I really don't think I am PMSing..

[This message has been edited by sassy (edited December 15, 2001).]
 
I've only read a little of the book so far, but spoilers don't bother me at all (I'll still read it anyway). So, help me out, what exactly is the Eye, and does this "Eye" have anything to do with the Centauri artifact called "the eye"?

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An Old Egyptian Blessing: May God stand between you and harm in all the empty places that you must walk.

Thoughts & prayers to soldiers fighting overseas and to their families.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> I wonder if JMS knew what he was doing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Vorlon Always knows what he's doing.
That's why he's The Great Maker.



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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
 
Sassy, now you should know better. Use the freaking spoiler boxes.

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"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny
 
My two cents:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
The difference I see between the two is that the Great Machine is exactly that -- a great, big machine. The eye, on the other hand, seems to be made entirely of living sentient beings who have been captured and, against their will, incorporated into the eye.

Draal is the brains that directs the Great Machine. For Draal, this is a wonderful life -- a perfect symbiosis (spelling?). He willing shares the existence and identity of the Great Machine. Though, he still exists as Draal.

Weirden is the brains that operates the Eye. If she could, she would destroy the Eye. Yet she, and all the living components, are controlled by the Eye(?).
</font></td></tr></table>

This is where I get confused.

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
So, Weirden controls the living components of the Eye and all living Shadow technology. But the Eye controls Weirden, but Weirden controls the Eye.

This is circular.

One can argue that Shadow programming controls Weirden. Where is this programming housed? If the programming in housed in Shadow technology, and Weirden controls the Shadow technology, why can't she control the programming?

Or are there certain particular Shadows who spend all their time controlling Weirden's mind? If that's the case, why not assign a Shadow to run the Eye in the first place, and not bother with Weirden?

</font></td></tr></table>



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"What's up, Drakh?"

Michael Garibaldi
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ninja_Squirrel:
I've only read a little of the book so far, but spoilers don't bother me at all (I'll still read it anyway). So, help me out, what exactly is the Eye, and does this "Eye" have anything to do with the Centauri artifact called "the eye"?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Centauri Eye was either a piece of jewellry or a small statue IIRC.

The Eye of the Shadows

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> is a control center of Shadow technology locatd on Z'Ha'Dum and is run by a technomage named Weirdon with or without her permission </font></td></tr></table>



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I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doctor Gonzo:
Sassy, now you should know better. Use the freaking spoiler boxes.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dr gonzo ~~ what part of the word SPOILERS IN THIS TITLE OF THIS THREAD DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?????????

BUT I will COMPLY with your SPOILER BOX request...ANYWAY!




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I really don't think I am PMSing..
 
Yes, the Centauri Eye is:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
A big, historic piece of jewelery that has been lost. IIRC, Londo recovers it, both as an act of patriotism, and as a way to advance himself. Morden "arranges" to have it stolen -- and as a "favor" to Londo, presents to lost-again Eye to Molari. This is among the first of the "favors" Morden performs for Londo. The spiral begins.
</font></td></tr></table>

There is also "the Eye that does not see."




<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
The Lady Morella is the emperor's widow. She is also a seer (and played by Majel Barrett -- aka #1 in the original TOS pilot; Christine Chapel in TOS, Troi's mother in TNG & DS9, and the voice of the ship's computer from TOS through VOY -- as well as Gene Roddenberry's wife).

Lady Morella tells Londo he can still redeem himself in one of three ways. One of these three ways is to save "the Eye that can not see" -- this refers to G'Kar.
</font></td></tr></table>






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"What's up, Drakh?"

Michael Garibaldi
 
Sorry Sassy, I forgot which thread I was in. I usually only look at the last post and red folder so I missed that there was spoilers in the title.

My fault.

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"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny
 
oh good, Dr. G..as long as you didn't know where you were..and NOT being a jerk..then its cool...
laugh.gif


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I really don't think I am PMSing..
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mondo Londo:


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
Lady Morella tells Londo he can still redeem himself in one of three ways. One of these three ways is to save "the Eye that can not see" -- this refers to G'Kar.
</font></td></tr></table>


[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps.

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-- Marty
 
well, after re reading it a bit..

i don't see any difference.


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> First, Galen gets out of the eye and gains his OWN control over it..and the same as Draul (sp) they both have their own control over their own body's.

With Galen at the center of the eye, the eye still wanted to do evil, but was unable to as with the shooting down of the white star. IF the eye could, it would have shot down the white star, but it couldn't..

and perhaps the eye wasn't so evil, as much as it just had 1000 years of 'lost their way' programing. </font></td></tr></table>



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This is my "be nice to Antony week"...WARNING~~MOOD SWING MAY HAPPEN WEEK AFTER NEXT...depending on the astrological projection of the hormonal balance.
 
Ok,

A couple things in the book have me baffeled a bit. First, the Eye. As opposed to what someone said above:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
I do NOT think it controls _ALL_ Shadow Technology everywhere. 2 reasons for this. First off, after the episode Z'ha'dum, Lyta and Ivannova went to Z'ha'dum to look for Sheridan, and Lyta said 'the Eye is looking for us'. So basically, a few days after it 'died' it was back and kicking. The second reason is that in previous Shadow wars, the Shadows get driven OFF Z'ha'dum, their place of power. If the Eye died, or if they were forced away from it, then their stuff would stop working right? Either way, it confused me in the book when the Eye 'died' but in the show, was still around. If it died, then the shadow war would have ended there because all their stuff would have stopped when the Whitestar exploded... </font></td></tr></table>

Anyone care to fill me in?
wink.gif


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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mondo Londo:
My two cents:

This is where I get confused.

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
So, Weirden controls the living components of the Eye and all living Shadow technology. But the Eye controls Weirden, but Weirden controls the Eye.

This is circular.

One can argue that Shadow programming controls Weirden. Where is this programming housed? If the programming in housed in Shadow technology, and Weirden controls the Shadow technology, why can't she control the programming?

Or are there certain particular Shadows who spend all their time controlling Weirden's mind? If that's the case, why not assign a Shadow to run the Eye in the first place, and not bother with Weirden?

</font></td></tr></table>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's how I see it, and I am a computer geek, so I must know all. (Just like the rest of the computer geeks here.
laugh.gif
)

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>Talking in completely geeky terms, it seems to me that the Eye is effectively a living, multi-processor computer. In other words, it could very easily run what it needs to run without an occupant - but it's going to work a lot better with a second component.

For the Shadows, this second component HAS to be a member of one of the other races. The Shadows use other races as tools - they could never CONCIEVE of themselves being used as tools. So there's no way that a Shadow would put a Shadow into the Eye; it's just not their way.

Now, although it's a living computer, it's still a manufactured device. Nothing "built" is going to operate as efficiently or multitask as well as a living organism's mind, a fact that I disprove every day when I haven't had my coffee yet. Take that one step further - take the existing efficiency of a living mind and cause it to become used to dealing with controlling Shadow technology. You have a mind that's focused on existing and operating normally while still being in control and commanding this tech... you have a perfect brand new processor.</font></td></tr></table>

That's what I understand based on the books. I've already stated my view on the Shadows - they have no problem with order - as long as it's order on THEIR terms. They want to be the rulers of a strong universe, so they enforce chaos and natural selection, but everything they do simply screams "CONTROL!"

Regarding Recoils question:


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>I'd be willing to bet that the Eye is more like a network than a single entity. In other words, there's a single main control, but there's a lot of backup and redundant systems. Even when the primary controller goes down, it doesn't take too long to bring a fully functional system back up, wherever they need to. Once again - chaos for the rest of the universe, but logic and order for the Shadows.</font></td></tr></table>



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"Now, get the hell out of our galaxy, ya dad-gum kids! You keep tracking dirt on my planet. And if I see your dog again..."
 
Wyvern,

I'm sorry, but I must be slow. I don't quite see how your reponse answers my question.

I'm certainly willing to agree that:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
1. No Shadow would demean itself by being the center of the Eye, when a slave can do the job.

2. The Eye is a multi-processor organic machine, which can be reconstructed or revamped simply by pouring in more slaves.

3. The Eye may be able to function, but nowhere near as well or as intelligently, without a super-organized mind at the helm. This suggestion reminds me of when, in 2001: A Space Odyessy, HAL gets a lobotomy.
</font></td></tr></table>

But:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
What, or who, controls Weirden? She wants to control or destroy the Eye, or destroy herself to destroy the Eye. However, her will is completely subjugated. She instead has her intelligence focused to run the Eye for many centuries.

Galen, united with his tech, can break the spell and free the other components of the Eye. Together, all the units within the Eye share Galen's freedom, and allow the White Star to attack them -- rather than continue the evil. Of course, there is the possibility Galen is imposing his will on the slaves (rather than sharing his free will), but it doesn't read that way to me.

Before his epiphany, though, Galen is falling under the spell very quickly -- as had Weirden.

Weirden says the Eye is programmed for evil, but where and how? There must be another processor around that's stronger than Weirden, no? If it's all the other slaves using their combined will against Weirden, how can that be -- when Wierden controls and coordinates all the elements of the Eye? Where and how is the "evil programming" housed?
</font></td></tr></table>



And there's the big difference between the Great Machine and the Eye:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
Draal and the Great Machine are partners.
Weirden is the Shadows' slave.
</font></td></tr></table>


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"What's up, Drakh?"

Michael Garibaldi

[This message has been edited by Mondo Londo (edited December 17, 2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wyvern:


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>I'd be willing to bet that the Eye is more like a network than a single entity. In other words, there's a single main control, but there's a lot of backup and redundant systems. Even when the primary controller goes down, it doesn't take too long to bring a fully functional system back up, wherever they need to. Once again - chaos for the rest of the universe, but logic and order for the Shadows.</font></td></tr></table>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
spoiler reply heh


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> I agree network buiso I mean when Galen was controling the eye he wasn't controling ALL of the shadow fleet etc....he was controling all of the Shadow stuff around the planet but he could feel that there where otehr shadows further away doing stuff that he couldn't control. thats why I beleive with this network thingy and I guess they have those transmission device thingies that the technomage's put all around teh universe so there signels can travel alla round.... I figure the shadows would have a similar type of thing. </font></td></tr></table>



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Deviot
Lincbot@yahoo.com.au
 
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