souls

[Mr. Bester]

If Sinclair turned from minbari to human and delenn from minbari to a minbari-human then how did she seal the break? I mean shouldn't she have turned into a total human or for another minbari to turn into a minbari-human for the break to be sealed?

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I don't believe in souls in the narrow sense. What could they be? What makes us ourselves? In my opinion, those are patters of thought -- ideas and concepts, deeds and words, understandings and principles. Perhaps the Minbari define soul similarly? If they do, this question may have an answer, if we only reverse the sides.

Sinclair went to the past and became a revered Minbari leader. Through his deeds and words, Human ideas and concepts reached the Minbari civilisation. Human souls started appearing among the Minbari. But the Humans got nothing in return. One could say that the game was unbalanced.

Many years later, Delenn chose to become Human and interact with Humans. While preparing the Rangers for the Shadow War, and building the Interstellar Alliance. One could say that she did exactly what she said, balancing the game. Introducing Humans to Minbari thinking. One could describe that as Minbari souls starting to appear among Humans.

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<font color=yellow>Given the difficulty of distinguishing between Sinclair and his mirror image as Valen, it was natural for the Minbari to think that Sinclair had Valen's soul. It would be equally correct to say that Valen had Sinclair's soul. In reality though, they were the same person.</font color=yellow>

 

[Loadhan]

I think the reasoning is that Sinclair was not completely Minbari ... he looked completely - or near - Minbari but still had many Human genes. Evidence of this is the episode in Season 4 when Delenn returns to Minbar to be questioned about her intended marriage to Sheriden - a non-Minbari - and it's discovered that Human DNA has been in Minbari for a thousand years - brought in by the children of Valen (Sinclair) and:

<font class="small">Spoiler:</font>
<table bgcolor="#000000" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" border="0"><tr bgcolor="#000000"><td bgcolor="#000000" id="spoiler"><font color="#000000"> some speculate from Cathrine Sakai - wether she was turned into a Minbari with the third Triluminary or remained Human </font></td></tr></table>


Another arguement - be it maybe farfetched - is the Triluminaries bring out what's deep inside you. Sinclair had a Minbari soul - the Trilums told that. Delenn had some Human DNA - from Valen - the Trilums told that as well. Delenn might not have known everything about it all when she made that statement.

Delenn was mostly Human after the change, anyway. From a few examples, her appearance and physiology seemed mostly Human - compatable enough to even have a mostly Human child. The only real remaining Minbari was her bone-crest (which was also very different and smaller than normal), her long life, and possible her strength - but that could have just been through some Ranger training as Entil'zha. Her beliefs, her thoughts, her spirit, her personality, everything that matters, was still Minbari though.

What I always wondered ... So Sinclair had Valen's soul? Was that just because he became Valen ... or did Valen's spirit reincarnate into baby Sinclair ... and then go back in time in a viscious spirtual time loop? ^_^

 

[A_Ranger]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Loadhan:
<font color=yellow>What I always wondered ... So Sinclair had Valen's soul? Was that just because he became Valen ... or did Valen's spirit reincarnate into baby Sinclair ... and then go back in time in a viscious spirtual time loop? ^_^</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Sinclar was Valen. Valen was Sinclair. Same person, same soul (if you believe in souls, I personally don't)

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Despite her appearance, Delenn must have been almost entirely Human. Her entire reproductive system underwent a massive change (hence her question to Ivanova in the transport tube) and she was able to conceive a child with Sheridan. On this planet you need to have a nearly 100% genetic match for offspring, and 100% if the offspring themselves are to be fertile.

"Atonement" raises the issue of whether this "soul migration" is objectively a real occurance or not. That the Minbari believe it is does not make it so. It is at least as likely that the Triluminary reacted to Sinclair's DNA - which he would share with Valen - and that a trace of this genetic heritage also caused it to glow for Delenn. In that case there is nothing to substantiate the Minbari belief at all. Even Delenn seems to accept this notion.

Regards,

Joe

 

[superbob]

It boils down to whether you have faith in science or in souls.!

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It boils down to how you define soul.

 

[Loadhan]

And how long does one boil a soul? To where it just starts to steam or bubble or till it evaporates and leaves all the gooey goodness left in the pot? /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Bester]

The 3 members of The One (as they appear after each transformation) represent the migration of the Minbari soul...

STAGE ONE - Minbari
"The One Who Was" - Valen

STAGE TWO - Minbari/Human
"The One Who Is" - Delenn

STAGE THREE - Non-corporeal being
"The One Who Will Be" - Sheridan

 

[superbob]

But isn't the "one " split into the three characters?
Sinclair the one who was
Delenn the one who is
and Sheridan the one who will be!

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bester:
<font color=yellow>The 3 members of The One (as they appear after each transformation) represent the migration of the Minbari soul...</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

I would see it the opposite way... /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif For me, the soul stuff is just a metaphor for ideas, ways of thinking and ways of seeing the world.

----

Sinclair only became Minbari in body, but had a Human mind (aside from the influences he picked up along the way) and hence resembled a Human soul among the Minbari. He introduced numerous Human ideas to the Minbari civilisation. His physical change had only one reason. To make him acceptable.

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Delenn hardly became a hybrid. She became as Human as possible. Otherwise conflicting biologies would have made living impossible. Just like with Valen, her genes changed. But her mind (or soul, if you prefer) remained Minbari, aside from the influences she picked up along the way.

She interacted with Humans (up to marrying one) and involved them in the Rangers. Helped ending the Shadow wars and creating the Alliance. Given that she profoundly influenced what became of the galaxy... we can say she introduced Minbari ways to many civilisations, including but not limited to Humans. Doing that, she also learned the ways of other civilisations, and seemed quite eager to introduce them to her own people.

-------

Sheridan. While I can understand the other parallels, the "non-corporeal" claim from Bester confuses me. Non-corporeal? In which manner did he exhibit such properties? He seemed quite a real and material person to me, and remained quite Human from birth to death.

He simply realized he had choices and made them wisely enough to help creating a better future. Transformations were only a means, a means of gaining quick acceptance among alien cultures. Sheridan had no need for that. He never needed to move into a completely alien culture. By the time he and Delenn moved to Minbar, he had gained respect and acceptance in other ways.

Thus he remained Human in body, but bodies are irrelevant. He had an open mind, and this allowed making good choices. In fact he achieved, together with Delenn, something which few could dream of.

-----

<font color=yellow>Instead of trying to interpret the "One" as something supernatural, I much prefer to consider them people. Because it makes this excellent story about them more meaningful.</font color=yellow> I prefer to imagine a story with no souls, no supernatural, no fate aside from quirks of time and space. Simply people and choices. Good choices can create a future, bad choices can destroy it.

Quite naturally, others can imagine the same story in the way they prefer.

 

[Bester]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lennier:
<font color=yellow>the "non-corporeal" claim from Bester confuses me. Non-corporeal? In which manner did he exhibit such properties? </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

He (arguably) became non-corporeal inorder to travel with Lorien beyond the Rim, where the First Ones (non-corporeal entities) now reside. Although, these events in SiL are open to opinion.

 

[Chilli]

It has been established in the comic "In Valen's Name" which are partly written by the great maker himself, partly by Peter David on a very exact outline from the great maker himself, that Valen, thought presumed dead, His body was never found, same as with Sheridan. It is my theorie that Sinclair/Valen went beyond the rim just like Sheridan. As for Delenn - We never found that out (yet). But it would make sense that she would join the others beyond the rim as well..or should i say..the place where no shadows fall?

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bester:
<font color=yellow>He (arguably) became non-corporeal inorder to travel with Lorien beyond the Rim, where the First Ones (non-corporeal entities) now reside. Although, these events in SiL are open to opinion.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote> Even if he did (which I doubt) it was relevant only for the latter part of his life. The part which came after. The part we know nothing about... and in my subjective opinion, the part which never existed.

In that case Sheridan was just an individual whose fate was different, not a generalisation about any others, be they Human or Minbari. Because those others, even as they built something greater than themselves, never saw it completed, although they may have wished.

Sheridan's alleged latter activities we know nothing about... hence for all intents and purposes, he did not exist. Given that he was a person unlikely to sit on his butt, we may conclude that he simply stopped. Even if such activities existed, <font color=yellow>they did not matter</font color=yellow>. About his real and corporeal activities we know much... <font color=yellow>and they mattered.</font color=yellow>

In that temporary and fragile form, in spite of their limitations, those people created something which shaped the future of worlds... not only their own, but those of others, and of vastly more powerful beings. If there was anything remarkable, anything essential to this story (in my subjective opinion) it was this.

Choices which change the future. Given that the "One" was referred to with the word Entil'zha, that must have been its true meaning. Someone who creates the future. Nothing about appearances, or non-corporeal entities for that matter... creating the future is something which everyone does, but few understand they are doing.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ChiLlBeserker:
<font color=yellow>..the place where no shadows fall?</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote> My point of view:

Is it not irrelevant if she saw their work complete? She never planned to. In fact, none of them chose their actions to receive rewards. Valen went to the past, quite content with never knowing the outcome. Sheridan and Delenn built the Alliance, quite aware that they would never know if it lasted.

They did what they did not to receive rewards, but create something better... and were quite content with being temporary, seeing only a glimpse. Surely this does not diminish the meaning of creating the future, but only increases it!

For the Shadows, creating the future resembles a business deal... practical everyday life, perhaps even selfish. Being incredibly advanced, and for most purposes eternal, they will see the future they build. They have practical interest in creating something better and profitable...

For a temporary creature to strive for a better future is much more meaningful. Because of such creatures, only words and deeds are left. They cannot personally enjoy what they build. Their only chance of return is new generations of similar creatures, some perhaps a reflection of their ancestors...

 

[EntilSedai]

Sinclair-The One who was. With out Sinclair going back and becoming Valen, the shadows would have fared much better and the younger races would have no chance a la WWE 1&2. The beginning of the story is the "defeat" of the shadows by Valen and his followers.
Delenn -The One who Is- At that point, Delenn "started" the E-M war, which led to the babylon project, as well as being the main "glue" for the younger worlds, shipwise.
WWE happens before z ha dum-rising star arc
Sheriden - The One who is to come. His actions, such as kicking out the first ones, overthrowing clark and heading the political/military/economic drive for the alliance(although delenn handles the end part) finish the story of how "The One" or Entil'Zha creates the future.

Also, wasnt the late 1200's the time at which human civilization reasserted itself in Europe,as in many of our great thinkers and documents occured after this time? The transfer of ideas seems to fit the timeline then.

CR