Sheridan's Son

Kribu · Jul 23, 2002

Re: Sheridan\'s Son

"As for the view mentioned that the Movie "In the Beginning" locked the "Flashed" future in, I should dare to point out that In the Beginning was just that, in the beginning of the series, before Sheridan would have his flash, before he would go to Zhahadum and, according to the above mentioned theory, would THEN change the future.
In essence, I am suggesting that In the Beginning was itself another type of flash forward, flashing from a point in the time line before the future would have been changed by Sheidan going to Zhahadum."

How so? There was nothing "flashing forward" about In the Beginning. It was a lookback on the beginning, not the beginning itself. The movie itself was, after all, set in 2278, in the "current" timeline, with a very real Londo telling the *story of the beginning* to the kids.

As said before, In the Beginning was *how it all happened*, not just in the Earth-Minbari war but also in 2278. In that movie, there was no alternative future, it was all set.

"On a side note, it is pretty odd to have Gkar just "hanging around" on Centari Prime, especially with Londo as protective as he is of his Keeper, at least when sober."

Have you read the Centauri trilogy? BTW, there really is no reason to disregard it story-wise as "books not penned by JMS", since it's based on his outline and his story, telling the events JMS planned to tell. Apart from some minor date problems, it's pretty much canon, especially since it doesn't oppose anything that happened in the show itself, it just provides a backstory to what we saw in the series.

Anyway, putting this in a spoiler box just in case:

Spoiler:
<table bgcolor="#000000" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" border="0"><tr bgcolor="#000000"><td bgcolor="#000000" id="spoiler">G'Kar wasn't just hanging around, he was caught on Centauri Prime and jailed. He spent most of his time in a prison cell there, especially towards the end, "hanging around" Londo only when Londo asked for him.</td></tr></table>

hypatia · Jul 23, 2002

Re: Sheridan\'s Son

The Centauri Trilogy brings to my mind a bit of a discrepency. I'll try to use the spoiler boxes, but in case it doesn't work
spoiler from the trilogy:
.
.
.
.
.
.
Spoiler:
<table bgcolor="#000000" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" border="0"><tr bgcolor="#000000"><td bgcolor="#000000" id="spoiler"> It is a minor point, I know. But when we see Vir eventually being the emperor we see him pretty much acting like his old self (the Vir we all know from the episodes). Yet according to the books, Vir had become very hardened by that point in time. It's hard to see him acting as confused and easily led as he was acting at the end of the series. </td></tr></table>

B5_Obsessed · Jul 23, 2002

Re: Hypatia

Possible Spoiler:

Dont look!

With regard to Vir, the events in the Centauri Trilogy were difficult and often quite painful. He made some rough choices and became bitte. But by the time Sleeping in Light occurs, it's 2 or 3 years later and there's been a reconciliation between Centauri Prime and the Interstellar Alliance.

The Drakh's dirty secret, once revealed, likely prompted a flood of sympathy and financial support for that damaged world. Furthermore, Vir is now Emperor, he's living well, and he's doing good work for the good of his people. Time heals all wounds (that and two or three bald women a night). A person like Vir could not long live with persistant anger and bitterness toward the Universe. That's what makes him the right Centauri for the job of Emperor at that particular point in history.

I don't perceive Vir as being gullable or naive (i.e, the old Vir) in SiL, I simply see him as the sensitive person he always was. In his short, private time with his old friends he is able to temporarily relinquish his role as Emperor and just be Vir. Emperor or not, he's far too classy to be a pompous ass at the dinner table.

And sure, they did have to put him to bed, but "Wine, Women, and Song" is a highly regarded Centauri motto.

Loadhan · Jul 24, 2002

Re: Sheridan\'s Son

I agree with Obsessed. Vir didn't need to be the person he became; he could go back to a more relaxed and fun atmosphere. Also, I didn't notice him being the naive sometimes goofy Vir from the series in SiL. His three big scenes were in bed when the Ranger came. Yeah, he acted a bit silly but considered the situation ... he was giddy, distracted, and under sheets that were probably the finest the Republic could weave, he didn't nessarily hear the call that well. Plus he didn't know the importance of it until he saw the Ranger - immediately he sobered up and knew at once what it was about. At the dinner table he joked - but so did the rest. When talked about Londo and the Pak'ma'ra ... that was a very mature and touching speech which led the way to the toasts. Yeah, he did get drunk and pass out later (or that's implied ... they must have snuck some alcohol in for the occasion) but that's just acting like a normal Centauri - not like the old Vir. At the end when Zach is trying to get him to do work and the lady wants to distract him ... once again, like a regular Centauri. Londo would do that kind of thing often and he could be very serious, decisive, and a great leader.

Also, I think Vir's expression in WWE2 really showed the severity he'd gone through.

The biggest Vir scenes I wish I could see live acted from the "Legions of Fire" books are:
Spoiler:
<table bgcolor="#000000" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" border="0"><tr bgcolor="#000000"><td bgcolor="#000000" id="spoiler"> when he pulls a knife on an unsuspecting Londo </td></tr></table>

and
Spoiler:
<table bgcolor="#000000" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" border="0"><tr bgcolor="#000000"><td bgcolor="#000000" id="spoiler"> his holographic speech revealing the Drakh. </td></tr></table>

hypatia · Jul 24, 2002

Re: Sheridan\'s Son

O.K. you win. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif There is nothing actually inconsistent. In the Vir part, that is. (The ship thing really was a goof up, I'd bet.) But there are going to be some problems when these books are so completely dependant on tha characters from the series. I did enjoy reading the Centauri Trilogy, though. It was one of the better B5 series, IMHO.

Nevertheless, I'm glad I'm back to reading sci-fi books not based on series. I suppose too much of any one thing is bad. And I did basically read the B5 novels one after another.

2aMageing · Jul 24, 2002

Re: Sheridan\'s Son

It's a bit tough for me to describe my point of view, Kribu, of In The Beginning's place in B5 canonization, but let me take another crack at it.

In The Beginning was presented at the Start of the B5 series, I see it as a beginning ...looking forward to the THEN current future to come .... where londo is "telling a story" that happens somewhere in between.

And as the series progresses the future gets changed (or not, depending) at a point roughly 2/3rds of the way through (Sheridan going to ZHD). I believe the Movie was about the future, it had to be A possible future to be presented as a "beginning" to the B5 series.

Hmmmm, not easy to describe I guess. I love messing around in, and considering the possibilities of the "Grey 17" of time and space.

Bottom line, I am taking into consideration not just when the Movie takes place, but ALSO from where in the B5 progression of episodes it is being shown....if that's of any help.
I know Joe D is lineing up his cross hairs to set me straight about what is canon and what is not, but on the academic subject of whether sheridan changed the future or not, I am saying it can go eitherway, and with only a series of books written by another person (even if it was with "permission") and a paltry few episodes and 1 Movie showing this piece and that piece of the future, I just want to say that the JMS written future is not so set in stone as some would like to convince others of.
If JMS had gone on to fill in the gaps, I dare say the future might not be so cut and dry as it might seem from playing connect the dots with only hints and a few chunks shown us here and there.
To each their own I guess...

So, is this where I get the bits blasted out of me for being so darn distracting and off the beaten track??
/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif /forums/images/icons/blush.gif /forums/images/icons/wink.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

B5_Obsessed · Jul 24, 2002

Re: \"Possible\" futures

I don't know why this subject always seems to pop up but it does confuse some people.

Sill, the fact is that the future seen in "War Without End" and "In the Beginning" is THE real future.

Sheridan and Co. did change the future though. AS seen in WWE, had they not acted, Babylon 5 wouldv'e been destroyed midway through Season 3 and all of our heroes would've died.

The future of Centauri Prime is a direct result of Sheridan's winning (or cancelling) the Shadow War. And in 2278, it's a better future for just about everyone except Centauri Prime.

In Sleeping in Light, Londo and G'Kar are dead - and we saw how it happened. Vir is now Emperor, and although it's not very clearly demonstrated how he made it to the big chair on that episode, we know from Lady Morella's prophesy that he did inded succeed Londo after Londo died.

In the Beginning was NOT run at the beginning of the series, it was merely run at the beginning of TNT's airing of the series.

The framing of the episode sets it up clearly: he tells the children the story shortly after telling Sheridan he is to be executed. The part where he tells them "There is still a chance to save our world, but it will be hard, so very hard" refers to the fact that he is about an hour away from giving his life to free Sheridan. You can see the fear in his face. At the end of the movie he asks the guard to bring him six bottles, wait an hour, and bring the prisoners.

It's set in stone, buddy.

As for Delenn, the only reason she warned him NOT to go to Z'ha'dum is because she knew Sheridan was nearing the end of his 20 year warranty. In a moment of "human" weakness, she irrationally blurted out the only thing she could think of that might give them more time together. Of course, had he not gone, they probably would have been dead for decades.

KoshN · Jul 24, 2002

Re: Hypatia

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
 Originally posted by B5_Obsessed: 
I don't perceive Vir as being gullable or naive (i.e, the old Vir) in SiL, I simply see him as the sensitive person he always was. In his short, private time with his old friends he is able to temporarily relinquish his role as Emperor and just be Vir.

[/quote]

Agreed. People adapt to fit the situation at hand. When going through the trials he went through in the Centauri Trilogy he'd behave differently than he would in a private, sentimental situation with a lot of old, dear friends. The latter strips away the layers that you normally show the rest of the world.

KoshN · Jul 24, 2002

Re: Sheridan\'s Son

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
 Originally posted by hypatia: 
The ship thing really was a goof up, I'd bet.

[/quote]

What "ship thing" ? I did a word search on "ship" and your post was the first hit. /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

hypatia · Jul 24, 2002

Re: Sheridan\'s Son

That's from a different episode, KoshN, and what was written in the Technomage books. Not from this ep. at all, sorry to confuse.

But I think it does illustrate that you have to be careful when talking of the books as if they are 100% "cannon".

KoshN · Jul 24, 2002

Re: Sheridan\'s Son

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
 Originally posted by hypatia: 
That's from a different episode, KoshN, and what was written in the Technomage books. Not from this ep. at all, sorry to confuse.

[/quote]

Ahh, wrong trilogy. We were talking about Vir and the Centauri trilogy, not "The Geometry of Shadows" and the Technomage trilogy.

Regarding the Ondavi blowing up in normal space between B5 and the jumpgate in Summoning Light (p. 319-320), well, mistakes can happen. It's just important to correct them in the future. I think Cavelos made a mistake here. I think she tried to get a bit too tricky with the events and lost track of things. The Ondavi blowing up in normal space didn't fit with what we saw in "The Geometry of Shadows." Such a thing would have been seen, or at the very least mentioned in the episode, not omitted entirely.

hypatia · Jul 24, 2002

Re: Sheridan\'s Son

Yes, sorry, I had switched trilogies on you. My point was, don't think that the books are 100% "cannon". Some of them might be, but there are some mistakes.

The funny thing about this one was: it would have been so EASY to avoid this particular mistake. So, the ship blows up a few minutes later. No problem then. B5 would not have seen it then.

hypatia · Jul 24, 2002

Re: Sheridan\'s Son

I think I see all of your points about Vir just being a typical Centauri emperor and when he's around his old friends, being his old self with them. The one thing the Centauri books do show, IMHO, is how Vir could have been a logical choice to be the next emperor. That part does make sense. I'm trying not to be too specific to avoid spoilers here. We all know Vir will become emperor. But he wasn't all that important in the royal court, or so it seems, to explain how he could have succeeded.

The books do set that explanation up very well.

2aMageing · Jul 25, 2002

Re: \"Possible\" futures

Mmmmm, I clean forgot about Garibaldi's view of a possible future at the start of the 2 part episode. That would be, perhaps the alternate future from what happened, depending on what Sheridan's choice ended up doing, yup, I'll conceed that that bit probably settles whether Sheridan changed the future, and frim what to what.
I appreciate the counter point, and thanks, I was aware that In the Beginning was not from the start of it's first run, but rather a "bringing up to speed" provided by TNT for any new additions to B5 fandom.
Right or wrong, I always prefer to question the supposed "set in stone" things, just cuz sometimes stuff gets over looked when people stop asking questions.
I would hope who ever may be annoyed by it could find a bit more tolerance for people who choose to question the party line, instead of just accepting it.
Besides, it's all just great B5 discussion anyways.

I take your comments about the books to heart, Kribu.
I get a bit religious about plot that came from the mind of JMS as compared to that which comes from other sources. I guess I kind of feel like the universe that is filled in by other writers is more like parallel to JMS's B5 arc, and really a seperate series (JMS B5 and other peoples B5, never in twain to mee) since no one will ever be able to fill in the gaps he left the same way he would.

But even taken as a seperate entity, the books still hold their own on entertainment value at least, and based in a B5 universe that rarely disappoints for good stories.

Some pretty ok fan fiction out there too, while I'm on the subject.

Oh, and to weigh in on the Vir question, he does seem his "original" playful self when the ranger first arrives to give him the message, but the discrepancy is understandable since the dark path he was supposed to have traveled (via B5 books) would not have been known to Stephen Furst at the time he had to play the part.

KoshN · Jul 25, 2002

Re: \"Possible\" futures

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
 Originally posted by 2aMageing: 
Oh, and to weigh in on the Vir question, he does seem his "original" playful self when the ranger first arrives to give him the message, but the discrepancy is understandable since the dark path he was supposed to have traveled (via B5 books) would not have been known to Stephen Furst at the time he had to play the part.

[/quote]

Other possibility: Some people comparmentalize parts of their life very well, and so the areas don't affect each other (I'm like that.). So, when Vir was going through his trials in the Legions of Fire books, he may have appeared as his hardened self, but when in the presence of a few women who could have been his wives, in the bedroom, he might very well have been a more playful Vir.

Joseph DeMartino · Jul 25, 2002

Re: \"Possible\" futures

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
I guess I kind of feel like the universe that is filled in by other writers is more like parallel to JMS's B5 arc, and really a seperate series (JMS B5 and other peoples B5, never in twain to mee) since no one will ever be able to fill in the gaps he left the same way he would.

[/quote]

So what do you think of all the series scripts written by other writers? Are David Gerrold's, D.C. Fontana's and Peter David's efforts still part of a "parallel universe"? Neil Gaiman probably got less feedback from JMS during the writing of "Day of the Dead" than any of the prose writers did about the novels.

Regards,

Joe

2aMageing · Jul 26, 2002

Re: \"Possible\" futures

A solid point there Joe, however I would dare say that JMS had a fair bit more oversight on what went into the show than he has had over what has been going into the books.
I would bet he read and had to sign off on each episode (being his ultimate vision and all), but I doubt he has spent as much time screening stuff for the books.

I could be wrong. If anyone knows, with some certainty, about the creative process the episodes went through, I'd love to know about, and if I might be accurate or not.

That would make a notable difference between the shows and the books Joe, IMHO.

Joseph DeMartino · Jul 26, 2002

Re: \"Possible\" futures

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
but I doubt he has spent as much time screening stuff for the books.

[/quote]

Depends on which books you're talking about. The Dell novels (except for To Dream and The Shadow Within) had virtually no input from JMS. The Del Rey trilogies were all based on outlines that JMS wrote (about 20 single-spaced pages outlining the major events and character beats in each case.) He reviewed the manuscripts of each book and answered questions the writers had as they were working on them by telephone or e-mail. He provided background information to Jeanne Cavelos when she was writing Shadow, as well as answering her questions. And To Dream was written by his wife so you can be sure that he answered any questions that she had, as well as reading the book in manuscript before the publisher even saw it. (Didn't hurt that Kathryn Drennan had also written a B5 script, "By Any Means Necessary".)

So there are books and there are books.

It is true that minor continuity and other errors slipped through the editorial process, and it is true that JMS doesn't feel 100% bound by every detail in each book. If he ever does a future movie or TV project that overlaps with one of the books and he decides to change some small element, he will. He treats his own writing in the same way. The destruction of the Black Star in In the Beginning doesn't quite match Sheridan's earlier description, because when it came time to actually show it JMS took a different approach for dramatic reasons. Similarly Zathrus's capture in "WWE" contradicts the B4 commander's description of the same event in "Babylon Squared" - because it would have taken too much time to show that version. But for the most part the books that JMS has said are "canon" are canon, at least in broad outline, and as much a part of the "real" story as anything in the series itself.

Speaking of ItB I think it is absolutely clear from the structure (and this goes back to Londo's opening narration in The Gathering) that Londo is telling the story in flashback from the very real year 2278 - in the hours in between Sheridan's two visits to the throne room seen in "War Without End". The film even ends with Londo spying on Sheridan and Delenn in their cell, as we also saw during the timeflash in "WWE". So I can't see any reason not to accept that the future Sheridan saw is real, and that Londo and G'Kar will die just as we saw them die within hours of the ItB fade-out.

Regards,

Joe

Sheridan's Son

Administrator

Regular

Regular

Regular

Regular

Regular

Regular

Super Moderator

Super Moderator

Regular

Super Moderator

Regular

Regular

Regular

Super Moderator

Moderator

Regular

Moderator

Share this page

We value your privacy