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Shadows and Time Travel

I have trouble with tieing the Vorlons and/or Shadows to EVERY thing in the B-5 universe.

Well, the Shadows and the Vorlons have been the big players in the universe for the past 10,000 years (with only limited action from other First One species). They both were charged by others when they went beyond the Rim to remain behind and be shepherds and guardians of the younger races, so it makes sense that they'd have a huge number of points of influence, especially when it comes to something like the Great Machine, which we know was instrumental in multiple wars against the Shadows.
 
There was information about the Great Machine in the last few issues of the B5 Magazine. I am not certain how much is canon.
 
The Vorlons are certainly excellent candidates. I suspect they started building the GM shortly after the end of Valen’s Shadow War, basing their work and the location on things that Valen had told them. The Machine’s primary purpose was always to manipulate the time rift in Sector 14 in order to send B4 back in tim. The Vorlons probably moved Varn’s people to the planet as soon as it was completed. 500 years later a schism threatened their plans and they moved the dissidents far away – but they didn’t exterminate them, because they knew they would have to come back in 500 years in order to play their part in the events that placed Draal at the heart of the machine.

This last part is what I always believed. It makes great sense too. Valen came back in time through that rift, and met the Vorlons right away. He was in an excellent position to describe how he arrived, and the Vorlons would be ones who would know what would need to be done to "close the circle." I think this explaination fits best by far. However, again, it will always be conjecture since it was never said.

Joe also made a good point, in that it is obvious that the one, single purpose, of the great machine was to move B4 back in time to the last Shadow War. The reason being, is in WWE Part II, Delenn said that the rift is now closed forever. So somehow, something about the time travel aspects of the Great Machine are done after WWE II. At least that is what she implies.

So its not tying Vorlons/Shadows to everything, but this one aspect of the story clearly had a specific intent, and its not at all a stretch to say it was the Vorlons pulling the strings (maybe at Valens descriptions). Think of who benefitted the MOST from the GM being there? The Vorlons in that last Shadow War.
 
There was information about the Great Machine in the last few issues of the B5 Magazine. I am not certain how much is canon.

Either the penultimate or final issue of the B5 Magazine had an entry about the building of the Great Machine ... if I get the chance I'll put a scan up somewhere for people to read.

Since the article was written by Fiona Avery (whose main job was to make sure everyone else kept continuity working right) I imagine it should be considered to be "approved by JMS".
 
There are several things I’ve been reading about the Great Machine ever since I discovered Babylon 5

1. The Great Machine was built 500 years ago
2. Possibly by the Vorlons
3. More likely by Varn’s people
4. For reasons unknown


In addition, some people have suggested that the alien intruders in the episode are a race unrelated to Varn’s people and that they may have built the GM.

I just watched “AVitW Part 2”, taking notes and transcribing dialogue and I can say that all of the above (except for the possibility that the Vorlons built the thing) is hooey.

Intruder: “We have been 500 years searching for this place. We received its call signal. This world belongs to us. We are last of our people. Searched 500 years. We will take.”

When asked by Sinclair if the Epsilon 3 belongs to the intruder, Varn says:

“No. Outcasts. Violent. My people cast them out centuries ago. Signal was not meant for them. Was put there to hide from them. Given to me when the rest of my people died. Sacred trust. Legacy for the future. I am guardian. Protector. I live in he heart of the machine. We are one. Five hundred of your years have I waited in the Machine. “

Some people seem to take Varn’s words about “my people” casting the others out to indicate that they are different species. But the intruders are clearly just a renegade group that was driven away by the majority. (I suspect they wanted to take and use the GM for their own purposes, instead of merely holding it in trust for the future. Since they have been searching through space for their home planet, they must have been taken elsewhere and abandoned without technology or navigational aids.)

There is nothing to suggest that the Great Machine is 500 years old. In fact all the evidence in the show is that it must be older than that, probably considerably older. Consider, Varn says “my people” cast out the others “centuries ago”. So his people were still alive when the intruders were expelled. At some time later they died out, leaving Varn as the final guardian, as post he has held for 500 years. How long did it take Varn’s people to die out? 50 years? 100? 500? How long for the others to start searching for the place again? (If they were dumped on some uninhabited and isolated planet it might have taken them a couple of hundred years to develop spaceflight again.)

One thing that the Intruders don’t suggest is that they once had the technology to build the Great Machine at least 500 years ago plus whatever advances they would have come up with in the interim. If anything they should have been more powerful than B5 and an Earth ship, and they should have stood up better to the weapons of the Great Machine.

Nothing in either episode suggests anything about who built the Great Machine. The intruders claim that the planet and its secrets belong to them, but that isn’t the same thing as saying they built the Machine. Varn never makes such a claim. And Draal never says anything about who built it or why.

Finally it is clear that Varn’s people are not native to the planet. He can’t breathe the atmosphere any more than Draal or Londo can. Whoever built the GM must have brought Varn’s people to Epsilon 3 to act as caretakers – and that same somebody probably arranged for the Outcasts to be taken elsewhere when they became a problem.

The Vorlons are certainly excellent candidates. I suspect they started building the GM shortly after the end of Valen’s Shadow War, basing their work and the location on things that Valen had told them. The Machine’s primary purpose was always to manipulate the time rift in Sector 14 in order to send B4 back in tim. The Vorlons probably moved Varn’s people to the planet as soon as it was completed. 500 years later a schism threatened their plans and they moved the dissidents far away – but they didn’t exterminate them, because they knew they would have to come back in 500 years in order to play their part in the events that placed Draal at the heart of the machine.

And we still have no idea where the brothers Zathras came from.

Regards,

Joe

I read somewhere (again I think in the magazine timeline) that the Zathras brothers ship got caught up in Epsilon 3's orbit and they crash landed there, being taken in by Varn or whoever was custodian at the time.
 
Nobody had time travel technology per se. Nobody could just build a time machine and hop around the centuries at will. What somebody (presumably the Vorlons, but as Recoil points out, even that is unclear) developed was technology to control the temporarl Rift in sector 14 - which was a natural phenomenon. (And similar rifts, one assumes, unless the sector 14 object was unique, which is possible.) Absent the rift, time travel would be impossible for anybody.

Regards,

Joe

Delenn implies it is not unique with her Narniaesque statement at the end of WWE part 2 (about this door closing but their may be others, which is also what Profesor Kirke says at the end of TLTWATW).

The idea about the Shadows maybe creating the Great Machine is interesting. A lot of their tecnology is based on the idea of having a sentient being as the central processing or other main component that they build around.

Shadow Ships have sentient beings at the centre of their ships.

Technomages have Shadowtech built on to them.

Keepers are sustained by the host they are attached to.

Which fits the Great Machine's parameters, it requires somebody at the centre for it to function properly.

Aren't their alien markings on the device that might help attribute it to a known race? surely it must have been done before?
 
And the laser weapon that shot out of Epsilon 3 closely resembled a Shadow weapon. I always wondered about the possibility, but I couldn't believe the Shadows would build something like that, let the Vorlons or other "good guys" take it over/from them and then just forget about it, or not care enough to get it back.
 
Er, Galahad - you do realize it is [a) technically possible and (b) perfectly acceptable to edit posts you are quoting from so that you don't reproduce the entire post in your reply, don't you? :) If not, I'd be happy to explain the procedure.

Shadow Ships have sentient beings at the centre of their ships.

Technomages have Shadowtech built on to them.

True, but in both cases, and especially in ther former, the effect was deicdely negative. "Once you've been put inside one of those ships, you're never the same again." Frankin is never able to cure the teepsicles or find a safe way to remove their implants. The tech embedded in the Tecnhomage is also malign, in both its origins and its effects, until Galen is able to master it and bring it under his control. (And even then its origins remain a problem, as would have been seen in Crusade.)

The Great Machine simply doen't "feel" like Shadow technology. The Guardians can and do leave the device, and when they do they remain who they are, their personalities are no altered. The CPU of a Shadow ship cannot "talk" to normal people the way Draal does and would not be able to help its successor as Varn does.

And why would the Shadows have built such a thing - the only machine that could make time travel via a natural temporarl rift possible? They had no idea that B4 came from the future. Nor were they around and active over 500 years ago when we know the thing was built. Did they build it before the previous Shadow War? Again - what for[? What would have been their purpose in building it? Why didn't they use it before the war?

And how long as the temporal rift at sector 14 been there? It could have appeared out of nowhere much closer to Babylon 5's time, after all. Just because the Great Machine was buiilt 1,000 to 500 years ago doesn't mean the rift was there. Based on Valen's knowledge, the Vorlons could have built it there because they knew a temporal rift would appear in that spot. :) Even if it is older than that, the Shadows would have had to known about the rift, which is deep inside the Vorlon area of influence. (The pattern of the earlier wars seem always to be that the Shadows gather allies and foment wars among the younger races, then sweep in from Z'ha'dum near the rim of known space and make conquests among the Vorlon allies. Then the Vorlons and their allies expel the invaders, drive them from Z'ha'dum and the Shadows go hide in the outer darkness or hibernate deep within Z'ha'dum, waiting for a rematch. (I believe that the Shadows physiclally abandon Z'ha'dum, and their minions spend the intervening centuries perparing for their return, and watching over them. Then, when things are almost ready, they they bring the still-sleeping shadows back to Z'ha'dum so they will be in palce when the time comes - a time the minions cannot predict exactly. So say they bring them back 10 or 20 years before they expect their prepartions to be finished. That would explain how Delenn can say they were driven from Z'ha'dum and ask Kosh if they have returned to the planet and still make sense of Anna Sheridan's expedition awakening Shadows who were already there, but sleeping. The Icarus found them before they were ready and forced them to start moving too soon.)

BTW, I just recalled that we know the Shadows were ignorant of the rift (and therefore in no position to build the Great Machine) prior to the 2260s. They try to use it themsleves, or take control of it (the details are hazy) in the canon novel To Dream in the City of Sorrows. Sinclair, Marcus Cole and Catherine Sakai battle the Shadows in prototype fighters based on White Star technology. I'm pretty sure that the narrative establishes that they've only just found the rift. I also seem to recall that the one reason for using the prototype fighters (in addition to their superior firepower) is so that the Shadows won't recognize them and won't know who is defending the rift. (Much the same strategy as Sheridan used in his attack on the Shadow ship at Io.) Perhaps Archivist Mac and provide the details - and let us know if there's anything to support the theory I put forth about the Shadows and Z'ha'dum in The Shadow Within.

(I have access to almost none of my books at the moment, because I had to empty all of my bookcases so that they can be moved when my new carpet is laid in the two bedrooms. Unfortunately that event keeps getting postposted for various reasons and in the meantime several thousand books are stacked up along the walls of the living room, dining room and hallway and I can't just pull one out of the stack when I want it, even assuming I can find where it is. So I have no ability to check these things myself. ;))

Keepers are sustained by the host they are attached to

Keepers are themselves living creatures, biological parasites produced by the Drakh, they are not Shadow technology, so "one of these things is not like the others." :)

Regards,

Joe
 
Something else to keep in mind, is that the Great Machine did more than just control the time rift (or keep it open). From what Draal and Varn said, you could see practically the entire universe. Ivanova used it to track the Watches of Sigma 957 (and also was sensed by the Shadows). So the machine may have been built for one purpose, but due to its power, been able to do another. Still, I really do feel that Valen working with the Vorlons in the past had a lot to do with WHERE it was built, and its eventual control of the rift.

As Sinclair said "There are no coincidences"
 
It was a slicer beam, but not magenta coloured like a Shadow weapon.

I did find this statement purporting to be by jms:

"You may not find out who built the Great Machine in the series, but that will be one of the features of one of the planned TNT movies. And there will be more on the Valen/Sinclair transformation as well."

Did I miss something there?

There must be something regarding the glyphs on the machine's heart.

What if Varn's people were like the technomage's. Building the machine with Shadow help... but retaining their own way of doing things and later rejecting Shadow ideological influence... exiling Takarn's people who were a faction still loyal to the Shadpws. Perhaps the Shadows or their allies decided to exact retribution on the planet and wiped out the population with a shadow plague... maybe they thought they'd done enough to disable Epsilon 3 but miscalculated. What if Varn deliberately forced the Zathras brothers ship to land on Epsilon 3 because he needed help.

Just thoughts.
 
Who knows, might find out about some of that in one of the Lost Tales segments? Sounds like it was planned for a TNT movie that never happened.
 
I'm rather doubtful about Shadows really "sleeping" in any serious sense.

Creatures who can go transparent, possibly walk through solid objects, build certified crazy stuff and modify other creatures extensively, do not seem likely candidates for a physiological need for sleep.

I actually think they'd consider need for sleep a weakness and remove it.

I hence suspect they're just naturally solitary, and come together to foment chaos while overriding the preference for being alone, at intervals which they consider suitable, because some twisted perception of "duty" calls them to, and because doing it more often would exceed what they perceive as the tolerance of the younger races to interference.
 
"You may not find out who built the Great Machine in the series, but that will be one of the features of one of the planned TNT movies. And there will be more on the Valen/Sinclair transformation as well."

Did I miss something there?

If you mean, "Is there another TV movie or two that I don't know about?", the answer is, "No." :)

I don't know the date of that JMS message, but you have to realize that there was this odd interim period when PTEN was folding and it was absolutely certain that there wasn't going to be a fifth season. Nobody was even interested in picking up the show for another year. But the show wasn't completely dead because the syndication rights to the reruns had been sold and that deal included at least two TV movies with the possibility of more. I think that JMS post you quoted must come from this period.

Both TNT and The Sci-Fi Channel, however, were interested in picking up the series reruns. TNT eventually won the bidding war.

At that point they had never produced an original series, and weren't interested in doing so. But they did produce TV movies that got very respectable ratings and often very good reviews. So they decided to commission two original B5 movies to show in conjuction with the reruns of the four completed seasons, and later also offered to finance the re-edit and re-scoring of The Gathering.

This was at the beginning of season 4, so JMS went into the year knowing that he had 22 episodes in which to wrap the series, but that he also had 2 TV movies as well. He pitched what became ItB and Thirdspace to the network and they agreed. So now he could do "Atonement" as a single episode instead of the planned two-parter, and get the "dark side of IPX, greater mysteries in the universe" thread that he'd wanted to fool with in S5 at least briefly explored in a TV movie.

The discussion at that point turned to the idea of perhaps doing 3 or 4 B5 movies a year going forward, assuming the ratings for the reruns and the first two movies were good. These would all be 2 hour (90 miniutes of story time) films along the lines of ItB and Thirdspace. (Whch were, the 2nd and 1st TV movies shot, respectively.) So the business about exploring the origins of the Great Machine and doing a Valen story were probably in the context of that original TV movie plan.

There had been some hardcore B5 fans at TNT lobbying to pick up the 5th season for awhile, but nobody took them seriously. That began to change when they started shooting Thirdspace (which was shot first even though they always planned to air it second, because it used the B5 sets - which were still standing after the end of S4. ItB required all the available stage space that Babylonian productions had, so they had to strike and store all the regular B5 sets in order to make it.) TNT saw what a model of efficient production Babylonian was, and began to believe that they really could produce a series for the kind of budget and on the kind of schedule that they would require. That's what got them talking to Warner Bros. at the 11th hour, and that's what saved the show for a fifth season.

As S5 got going JMS was ramping up production on Crusade, he was still expecting to do a couple of B5 TV movies a year for TNT, the books were just coming out and Warner Bros. was thinking seriously about a feature film. Again, he saw himself as having a larger canvass to work with and other venues in which to tell certain stories, so the seeds of the teep war were planted in S5, but nothing more, and some TV movie ideas were pushed down the priority list so that more time could be spent laying the groundwork for Crusade (directly in A Call to Arms) and establishing the new characrter of Lochley, who as commander of B5 would carry over into the spin-off. (River of Souls - which also continued the "ancient mysteries/IPX search for alien secrets" thread that would also continue in Crusade)

Then TNT sabotaged Crusade and the whole theoretical house of cards came tumbling down. :D

Regards,

Joe
 
Given Draal's instructions to Ivanova in Voices of Authority, I always kind of assumed the Jedi built it..
 
The only thing linking the Machine to the Vorlons is B4.I believe that if the Vorlons were able to see into the future enough to know they would need B4 then they could of looked a few years further to see what the actual outcome was,told the Shadows and called it a day then.

All we know is that when the Minbari find B4 the Vorlons are already there,we know nothing of how they knew it to be coming or who if anybody could of sent them.

Lorien would be the obvious choice of somebody who could possibly create such a machine and have enough influence over the Vorlons so that they would listen.This could also explain their acceptance of Valen so readily.

I also was under the impression that the Great Machine was older than 500 years and that the last caretaker had been in charge of it for that amount of time.Just because the Caretaker couldn't breathe the atmosphere doesn't mean it wasn't his home planet either,in fact the change in atmosphere but explain the fact that an advanced race just seemed to die out.
 
If there are glyphs on the Great Machine (I've never noticed any) then they aren't Vorlon -- because Sheridan knows Vorlon script from Anna's research, and would have recognized them.
 
The only thing linking the Machine to the Vorlons is B4.I believe that if the Vorlons were able to see into the future enough to know they would need B4 then they could of looked a few years further to see what the actual outcome was,told the Shadows and called it a day then.

There is nothing to indicate that the Vorlons had any ability to "see into the future" at all. They only knew as much about the future as Jeffery Sinclair, as Valen, saw fit to tell them. (Enough that they would play their assigned roles, not enough that they would change the future.) They had no more idea of how the cycle of wars would ultimately end then he did, because they didn't know about anything that happened after the day in 2260 that Sinclair took B4 into the time rift.

All we know is that when the Minbari find B4 the Vorlons are already there,we know nothing of how they knew it to be coming or who if anybody could of sent them.

The Volrons didn't "know it was coming" and nobody "sent them." After B4 arrived in the 13th century and Valen emerged from his chrysalis (which may have been weeks later, given how long Delen's transfomration took and the fact that we don't know how long the "trip" from the 23rd century took in subjective time) he sent a signal on a channel and in a code he knew was used by the Army of Light in that time. The Vorlons were closer to his position, so they got there first. The Minarbi arrived not long afterwards. There was no hocus pocus involved.

> What can they possibly know about B4 since, by their reckoning,
> it's the first time it's ever made an appearance? How did they
> know when and where it would turn up? If they can do it, what's
> stopping the Shadows from doing it? Where does it all end?

Well, the other obvious solution, since the Vorlons were then
out and running around and actively involved in the war of that time
period, he just sent out a signal, and they got there first.

jms - (On Compuserve Sept 2, 1996)

Regards,

Joe
 
Well, Kosh did make some pretty accurate guesses about the future -- that whole "If you go to Z'ha'dum, you will die" bit -- which might leave people with the impression that Kosh had some insight into the future. But maybe they were just that -- guesses -- made by a very knowledgeable being.
 

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