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Possible original arc
- Thread starter Mr. Bester
- Start date
Mr. Bester
Beyond the rim
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by A_Ranger:
<font color=yellow>Mr Bester, what you're saying makes absolutely no sense.
You're saying that after Sinclair became Valen and did all that mumbo jumbo a thousand years ago, the Vorlons took him, cryoginically froze him for a thousand years to lead a war in the future? That's absurd.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
But Marcus didn't think it was so ludicrous that Arthur might have been saved by the vorlons. So I ask you why not Sinclair?
<font color=yellow>Mr Bester, what you're saying makes absolutely no sense.
You're saying that after Sinclair became Valen and did all that mumbo jumbo a thousand years ago, the Vorlons took him, cryoginically froze him for a thousand years to lead a war in the future? That's absurd.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
But Marcus didn't think it was so ludicrous that Arthur might have been saved by the vorlons. So I ask you why not Sinclair?
Mr. Bester
Beyond the rim
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Recoil:
<font color=yellow>That is because thats what the story told you. If he never was planned, they could have just always lived there or something. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
I think he or someone like him was part of the plan from the start at some level though...</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
How about Kosh? Piece of him was in Sheridan then piece of Lorien was in Sheridan. Kosh served as a mentor. Lorien served as a mentor.
<font color=yellow>That is because thats what the story told you. If he never was planned, they could have just always lived there or something. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
I think he or someone like him was part of the plan from the start at some level though...</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
How about Kosh? Piece of him was in Sheridan then piece of Lorien was in Sheridan. Kosh served as a mentor. Lorien served as a mentor.
Recoil
Regular
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mr. Bester:
<font color=yellow>But Marcus didn't think it was so ludicrous that Arthur might have been saved by the vorlons. So I ask you why not Sinclair?</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Marcus was joking in that whole exchange. He didnt seriously believe it, he was playing with Doctor Franklin. Suggesting it in jest.
<font color=yellow>But Marcus didn't think it was so ludicrous that Arthur might have been saved by the vorlons. So I ask you why not Sinclair?</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Marcus was joking in that whole exchange. He didnt seriously believe it, he was playing with Doctor Franklin. Suggesting it in jest.
Mr. Bester
Beyond the rim
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bester:
<font color=yellow>....also it would make less sense for a Minbari (Valen) to lead the Earth revolution as seen in S4. Sheridan states in S4 that if a Minbari were to lead the rebels during the war, "people back home would think that the Minbari War is happening all over again. It has to be one of us." That says it all, really. Sinclair would HAVE to have been a human during this time.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
And thats why I think there were three triluminaries. Sinclair possibly used the third one to become a half-human hybrid or fully human. Besides if Valen did return I think the issue would have been brushed aside afterall homeguard and the anti-alien movement was never properly addressed imho.
<font color=yellow>....also it would make less sense for a Minbari (Valen) to lead the Earth revolution as seen in S4. Sheridan states in S4 that if a Minbari were to lead the rebels during the war, "people back home would think that the Minbari War is happening all over again. It has to be one of us." That says it all, really. Sinclair would HAVE to have been a human during this time.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
And thats why I think there were three triluminaries. Sinclair possibly used the third one to become a half-human hybrid or fully human. Besides if Valen did return I think the issue would have been brushed aside afterall homeguard and the anti-alien movement was never properly addressed imho.
Recoil
Regular
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mr. Bester:
<font color=yellow>How about Kosh? Piece of him was in Sheridan then piece of Lorien was in Sheridan. Kosh served as a mentor. Lorien served as a mentor.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
That has nothing to do with the comment I was quoting. You have more erratic strains of thought in this topic that don't relate to each other than the X-files "story arc."
<font color=yellow>How about Kosh? Piece of him was in Sheridan then piece of Lorien was in Sheridan. Kosh served as a mentor. Lorien served as a mentor.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
That has nothing to do with the comment I was quoting. You have more erratic strains of thought in this topic that don't relate to each other than the X-files "story arc."
Hmm ... okay, going with some speculation here that Sinclair and Sakai would marry in early season 2, she would be lost at some point, and be turned into a Shadow crab pilot - and fill the role of Anna. Does this mean we would have expected Sinclair and Delenn to get together? (they did hint at the 'marriage' thing during the rebirth cermiony in season1) Just how much of Sheriden's role would Sinclair have had? It seems a bit tight to think Sinclair would get over Sakai's 'disaperance' that fast to start a true relationship with Delenn before the end of the series ... If Sinclair 20 years (or so) after S5 went back with B5, would Delenn have gone back with him if they were an item?
Overall ... it seems how things went worked out much better. Sinclair fit his roles nicely, Sherdien fit his own nicely. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
Overall ... it seems how things went worked out much better. Sinclair fit his roles nicely, Sherdien fit his own nicely. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
So he says now, heh. And I'm not sure his words are always - if ever - "the whole truth". Might have been herring about the wedding, but not about what might come later. And are we to believe then that Delenn would not have become a key figure in someone's love life if Sinclair had stayed? Or would - if the Sheriden character was still brought in - she had gone for him ... which seems a stretch given the time and how little contact they'd probably have at first ....
Bester
Regular
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Besides if Valen did return I think the issue would have been brushed aside afterall homeguard and the anti-alien movement was never properly addressed imho.<hr></blockquote>
So you think that jms would have originally just dismissed the whole Earth rebellion story?? Wow. That's akin to him writing-out the whole Shadow War - it would be a major let-down for us fans! Besides, homeguard and the anti-alien movement were all part-and-parcel of the Earth rebellion story.
So you think that jms would have originally just dismissed the whole Earth rebellion story?? Wow. That's akin to him writing-out the whole Shadow War - it would be a major let-down for us fans! Besides, homeguard and the anti-alien movement were all part-and-parcel of the Earth rebellion story.
Chilli
High Treason Prevention Officer
Sinclair + Delenn would have never worked in the way Sheridan + Delenn worked.
Even in Revelations the first time Sheridan sees Delenn you can allready sees the sparkling in their eyes. That was never there between Sinclair and Delenn. Thats the thing i liked about the Sheridan/Delenn relationship - it seemed real. In Star Trek for example, whenever two caracters come together you have the feeling the makers diced out who would get together with who.
Even in Revelations the first time Sheridan sees Delenn you can allready sees the sparkling in their eyes. That was never there between Sinclair and Delenn. Thats the thing i liked about the Sheridan/Delenn relationship - it seemed real. In Star Trek for example, whenever two caracters come together you have the feeling the makers diced out who would get together with who.
Shaal Mayan
Regular
I believe the relationship between Sinclair and Delenn would have worked as posted above Sakai would have been lost either to the shadows or to an accident of some kind and Sinclair would became close to Delenn maybe for comfort I for never liked the Delenn ,Sheridan relationship and was extremely disappointed to see Sinclair go and then to see him in only what was it three more episodes .Sheridan was okay but I'm a Jeffrey Sinclair if written right I think Sinclair's could have stayed in the show even if the storyline stayed along the same lines .
Mr. Bester
Beyond the rim
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
<font color=yellow>He didn't say either of these things. If you think he did, go to JMSNews and try to find the quotes. What he said about "SiL" is that he had planned the very last shot of the series (which turned out not to be the last shot) and described it to some of the production staff before they started on TV movie #1. He later identified the shot as the destruction of B5 at the decommissioning ceremony. He never said that "SiL" was planned in detail from the beginning. </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Well he obviously planned it far ahead enough to know the title in 1994.
<font color=yellow><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>As for "WWE" (as it exists) not resembling "SiL" - of course it doesn't. If the original plan was to have Sinclair as the lead for all five years (later modified to add a "Sheridan-like" character to help him - which JMS did say was part of his plan) then "WWE" as it is would never have been filmed. It isn't "WWE" that would have been the series finale, but rather the event of Sinclair's journey into the past, and the revelation that he was Valen all along. The actual events of the episode would have been very different.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
And what kind of finale would that have been? Babylon 5 gets blown up and then we focus on the past, Babylon 4 and the minbari. Thats more like a season finale than a series finale.
<font color=yellow><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Remember JMS's fondness for red-herrings and misdirection? What better way to keep people from guessing that Sinclair really was 20 years older, and that the series climax would come in 2278, than throwing in that pilot? </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
I think you got it in reverse. Zathras's blabbering about coming from the future and the aged Sinclair made everyone think that it was a Sinclair from the far future. Nobody would have thought it was an age accelerated Sinclair from the near future. And besides JMS said that it was always this way.
<font color=yellow><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>
Well, there goes your theory that "SiL" was planned from the very beginning. Absent Lorien "SiL" doesn't happen - there's no 20 year time limit, no First One to bring Sheridan/Sinclair Beyond the Rim. If Lorien is "obviously" a late addition to JMS's plans, then so is Sheridan and so is Lorien.
Regards,
Joe</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
No it doesn't Sinclair would probably have a piece of a vorlon in him and that I believe that is what leads him to the rim and to the vorlons who carry him beyond the rim.
Now let me ask you this if Sinclair was to become Valen at the end then why would he help the vorlons when he already knew that both sides had lost their way? And why twenty years into the future?
<font color=yellow>He didn't say either of these things. If you think he did, go to JMSNews and try to find the quotes. What he said about "SiL" is that he had planned the very last shot of the series (which turned out not to be the last shot) and described it to some of the production staff before they started on TV movie #1. He later identified the shot as the destruction of B5 at the decommissioning ceremony. He never said that "SiL" was planned in detail from the beginning. </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Well he obviously planned it far ahead enough to know the title in 1994.
<font color=yellow><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>As for "WWE" (as it exists) not resembling "SiL" - of course it doesn't. If the original plan was to have Sinclair as the lead for all five years (later modified to add a "Sheridan-like" character to help him - which JMS did say was part of his plan) then "WWE" as it is would never have been filmed. It isn't "WWE" that would have been the series finale, but rather the event of Sinclair's journey into the past, and the revelation that he was Valen all along. The actual events of the episode would have been very different.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
And what kind of finale would that have been? Babylon 5 gets blown up and then we focus on the past, Babylon 4 and the minbari. Thats more like a season finale than a series finale.
<font color=yellow><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Remember JMS's fondness for red-herrings and misdirection? What better way to keep people from guessing that Sinclair really was 20 years older, and that the series climax would come in 2278, than throwing in that pilot? </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
I think you got it in reverse. Zathras's blabbering about coming from the future and the aged Sinclair made everyone think that it was a Sinclair from the far future. Nobody would have thought it was an age accelerated Sinclair from the near future. And besides JMS said that it was always this way.
<font color=yellow><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>
Well, there goes your theory that "SiL" was planned from the very beginning. Absent Lorien "SiL" doesn't happen - there's no 20 year time limit, no First One to bring Sheridan/Sinclair Beyond the Rim. If Lorien is "obviously" a late addition to JMS's plans, then so is Sheridan and so is Lorien.
Regards,
Joe</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
No it doesn't Sinclair would probably have a piece of a vorlon in him and that I believe that is what leads him to the rim and to the vorlons who carry him beyond the rim.
Now let me ask you this if Sinclair was to become Valen at the end then why would he help the vorlons when he already knew that both sides had lost their way? And why twenty years into the future?
Mr. Bester
Beyond the rim
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bester:
<font color=yellow>So you think that jms would have originally just dismissed the whole Earth rebellion story?? Wow. That's akin to him writing-out the whole Shadow War - it would be a major let-down for us fans! Besides, homeguard and the anti-alien movement were all part-and-parcel of the Earth rebellion story.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
No I think they would have brushed aside the point that humans wouldn't have accepted the liberation fleet if it was lead by an alien. Civil war would still have happened.
And they never did finish the anti-alien thread. We know Nightwatch was disbanded, but what happened to all that hate? It can't just magically disappear.
<font color=yellow>So you think that jms would have originally just dismissed the whole Earth rebellion story?? Wow. That's akin to him writing-out the whole Shadow War - it would be a major let-down for us fans! Besides, homeguard and the anti-alien movement were all part-and-parcel of the Earth rebellion story.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
No I think they would have brushed aside the point that humans wouldn't have accepted the liberation fleet if it was lead by an alien. Civil war would still have happened.
And they never did finish the anti-alien thread. We know Nightwatch was disbanded, but what happened to all that hate? It can't just magically disappear.
PillowRock
Regular
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mr. Bester:
<font color=yellow>Now let me ask you this if Sinclair was to become Valen at the end then why would he help the vorlons when he already knew that both sides had lost their way?</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
That realization is, I believe, one of the (if not the) driving reasons why JMS shifted things around so radically to take Sinclair "off the board" and back in time so much earlier.
<font color=yellow>Now let me ask you this if Sinclair was to become Valen at the end then why would he help the vorlons when he already knew that both sides had lost their way?</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
That realization is, I believe, one of the (if not the) driving reasons why JMS shifted things around so radically to take Sinclair "off the board" and back in time so much earlier.
A_M_Swallow
Regular
We never did have a good reason for the 20 year limit on Sheridan's life. However, it would be a good reason for Sinclair to go back in time and transform into a Minbari.
Sinclair may not have liked the Vorlons but he did know that victory in the war would set up the conditions for both the Shadows and Vorlons to leave.
This shows up the odd thing about the Great Machine - it is nothing to do with the Vorlons. They do not even take get Lyta to pass messages to Draal. There is another mastermind who could be planning the activities - Lorien.
Sinclair may not have liked the Vorlons but he did know that victory in the war would set up the conditions for both the Shadows and Vorlons to leave.
This shows up the odd thing about the Great Machine - it is nothing to do with the Vorlons. They do not even take get Lyta to pass messages to Draal. There is another mastermind who could be planning the activities - Lorien.
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
JMS admitted having several sets of trap doors, and several guns hanging on walls, waiting to go off... there was a plan, but there was also improvisation. Which was which, now that is a nice question. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
Mr. Bester
Beyond the rim
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by A_M_Swallow:
<font color=yellow>We never did have a good reason for the 20 year limit on Sheridan's life. However, it would be a good reason for Sinclair to go back in time and transform into a Minbari.
Sinclair may not have liked the Vorlons but he did know that victory in the war would set up the conditions for both the Shadows and Vorlons to leave.
.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Why couldn't he have ended the conflict 1000 years earliers? He knew everything including how the shadows and vorlons operated and how to end it.
<font color=yellow>We never did have a good reason for the 20 year limit on Sheridan's life. However, it would be a good reason for Sinclair to go back in time and transform into a Minbari.
Sinclair may not have liked the Vorlons but he did know that victory in the war would set up the conditions for both the Shadows and Vorlons to leave.
.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Why couldn't he have ended the conflict 1000 years earliers? He knew everything including how the shadows and vorlons operated and how to end it.
Teekas Dragon
Regular
No offense Mr.Bester but you talk alot about knowing what jms said and planned, but i want to see quotes from jms. That's the only way you can make your arguement valid as fact, until then its just your opinion
Sinc
Jerome
Sinc
Jerome
A_Ranger
Regular
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mr. Bester:
<font color=yellow>Why couldn't he have ended the conflict 1000 years earliers? He knew everything including how the shadows and vorlons operated and how to end it.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Becuase that's not what happened in history, and he didn't want go screwing around with history.
<font color=yellow>Why couldn't he have ended the conflict 1000 years earliers? He knew everything including how the shadows and vorlons operated and how to end it.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Becuase that's not what happened in history, and he didn't want go screwing around with history.
