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Please can someone help me.....

One thing is if you are reading something of the net then you have a hard copy already on your drive in the folder'temporary internet files'.....

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Emporer Turhan-"How will this end"
Kosh-"In fire"
 
As a law student I have quite a lot of knowledge of copyright laws. In England no copyright publication may be reproduced (either manually, mechanically, electronically or through other means), stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted, in any form or by any means without the prior written permission of the publisher, nor be otherwise circulated in any form of binding or cover other than that in which it is published and without a similar condition being imposed on the subsequent purchaser. I imagine the US also has similar laws.

Also JMS explicitly asked on the site that the scripts not be copied or further distributed. Therefore any reproduction or e-mailing of the scripts would be illegal. Copying and/or distributing the scripts would be like borrowing a book from a library and then photocopying it. The book is lent out free of charge to be read not copied or distributed to others. If it wasn't for people illegally downloading the scripts then they would probably still be there now.

I hope this settles the debate.
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"Watch the Shadows, they move when you're not looking..."

[This message has been edited by En'til'zha (edited August 20, 2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> If it wasn't for people illegally downloading the scripts then they would probably still be there now.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I believe the site just shut down and had nothing to do with the Crusade scripts. In fact, it is possible that had JMS selected a different site, they would still be up.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
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He's got a good point you know
laugh.gif

Anyone could've just clicked the save button anyway and they'd have had the script on their PC that way
tongue.gif


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theone2.jpg
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The_One:
He's got a good point you know
laugh.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No he doesn't. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Anyone could've just clicked the save button anyway and they'd have had the script on their PC that way<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The whole point of Bookface was to prevent that exact thing from happening - The text was diplayed through a propretary java applet.


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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert

[This message has been edited by drakh (edited August 22, 2001).]
 
You know, what we really need is a library -

A place that would have hard copies of these scripts - which I also always intended to read but never got around to, like so many of you - and you could go and read them but leave them there.

What about it?

Presidents have libraries - surely JMS has enough important things to say that he deserves his own library too!

Or maybe a shrine - that's it.

And maybe it could be moveable, like in a tractor-trailer, and they could take it around to cons, a "Babylon 5 Reading Room," similar to what the Christian Scientists have.

Laugh if you want, but I'm not entirely joking.

Crusade was an awesome story, and the characters were so interesting.

Reading more about Galen in _The Passing of the Technomages_ trilogy has only made me more frustrated about the show being cancelled.

Finally:
The moral tone of this board is absolutely wonderfully amazing. 'Makes me proud to be an old sci-fi geek! Thank you all!

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Create the peace.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ala:
Bookface.com was a commercial site rather than a non-commercial one. Every time you read a book on that site, a royalty was paid to JMS per his contract with Bookface. That the medium is the Internet rather than a paper book doesn't remove the copyright protection that is afforded all written works. Crusade scripts were never put in public domain.

Making a copy of a script or a book on-line at a site such as Bookface.com is the equivalent of owning a book and copying the entire thing for someone.

It was never OK to make a copy of the scripts on Bookface.com or distribute them to friends. The legal notice you probably clicked through on Bookface.com actually prohibited that. Then they set up a complex technical mechanism to attempt to inhibit those among us prone to dubious behavior from taking illegal actions (much as you would lock your door). Unfortunately there are always burglers who break the window and then give the TV they took to their neighbor.

Best,
Alyson

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The internet is a public arena. Sorry, but that is what it currently is and the law is having some difficulty circumventing that to make it conform. Mostly because the enforcement of commercial laws is most difficult on the internet.

Bookface.com was indeed a commercial site. It was not protected which was sad as many people circumvented without any special expertise and copied the works they had on their site. More than just those Crusade scripts.

My point being (I am a patent law lawyer who works mostly in the scientific field) is that once these were posted, Bookface.com had a contract with JmS. A young woman who saved a lot of bookface.com's stuff and is worried that she may be sued. She cannot be. No one knows other than her that she copied them. She cannot be traced. Bookface.com may have been the one who did not live up to its arrangement.

Now for those who originally copied the scripts to begin with, there are no signatures, no way of tracing them, so they are currently safe. For those of us who actually were sent copied via email, we are also safe.

I will not share them now after reading his words because I am aware of how he feels about it, and I understand his point of view. Plus as a fan of us, I owe him that much.

So be it.




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Colleen L. Stanford
Gideon's Mine, all Mine
(he just doesn't know it yet, LOL)
 
I'd have no problem e-mailing you the scripts, but unfortunately I never read them myself. But as far as you or any other individual facing any legal repercusions, I think you're pretty much safe. The only thing that would be of a concern is JMS's personal feelings over the whole thing. If you don't care about that (and I don't) then you're fine.

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The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jgsugden:
There was something on Bookface saying that the material present was being presented for viewing only, not copying.

I'll stop my preaching now. I hate doing it. Unfortunately, I hate the fact that it seems to be necessary for people to hear words like this every so often.

-John

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem was, there were no safeguards to prevent anyone from copying and just getting garbage when they did so.

Something did not work right.

I have spied with my own little eye, the originals from bookface.com. Because the site was unprotected, regardless of the law, the downloadees are protected by the fact that the site itself did not stop copies from being made, regardless of some stipulation that states "do not copy" or whatever. Preach if you wish, but it is flatout impossible to find the original downloadees and threats are danged useless. My firm has a client that has downloaded many scripts from bookface.com, has never distributed them to anyone, but feared some form of retribution because of what she had heard on another board.

Although you are technically correct, because of the fact that nothing stopped users from copying the material in the first place, you cannot track the potential "thieves" and those of the rank and file that received their via E-mail from a fellow board member, even though under your guidelines are just as guilty, cannot be held responsible either, because they received them the same way. Bookface.com probably should have checked their site, i don't care what you put on the site in the form of warnings, most people don't read them for whatever reason, and the only way for the protection of these "scripts" was some form of encoding that would not allow copying by any machine. That was not in existence, did not exist, and many copied. I won't argue the right or wrong point, the simple fact is it was done. Completed. Not traceable. Not enforceable under the current regime of rules. That will change in the future (Napster comes to mind, it paid fines, they charged their customers to pass through the cost of the fines). The laws on this will change in the future because they have to. I don't know how, but they have to.

Yes, they may be the property of JmS, and he may be driving his lawyers crazy, but the proof of the pudding was in his own words, they were not written in books. Though he can claim the ideas as his own, his fear is that the scripts in this case have flooded the internet and could be used in other's ideas, therefore he could not "claim them" as his own work any longer. I am sure that he will not post scripts on the internet at any point in the future (as it is unwise in any case), and publish his writings. Only this will protect him in the future and he knows it. He is just asking us to do something and for that we owe him.




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Colleen L. Stanford
Gideon's Mine, all Mine
(he just doesn't know it yet, LOL)
 
The one-
there are places that you can read a synopsis of the scripts.... you'll know what the story was. ive read them and have copies somewhere but JMS expressly asked that they not be distributed further so i'll respect that.

try this one: http://babylon5.about.com/

alex

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"I can appreciate dramatic irony as much as the next person, but this is pushing it a bit."--Max eilerson
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GideonsMine:
The only problem is that by sharing them in a public forum<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>From previous discussions on this subject, I do not believe Bookface qualified (leagaly) as a public forum., given that it was only open to people who had acepted to their user agreement. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>The copies I have have a cover page which has the title on it, under it written by J. Michael Strazynski. No signature to prove it's even him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The Writer's Guild has a script registration service that for a fee, stores a copy of any script along with a certificate of when it was recieved. Since jms' scriptwriting book mentions this as an coutermeasure for getting ripped off, you'd think he'd use it himself.

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by taichidave:
Essentially, yes. Ideas cannot be copyrighted, only the expresion of those ideas in a fixed form, in this case, a script.

As I understand it, you can post, freely exchange, etc. a synopsis of a script. The script itself is protected.

And jms asked us to stop. He's pretty much always been straight with us. I figure I owe him that much.
smile.gif


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I appreciate your point, really I do, but this script was nothing more than a series of pages, not published, the PTO doesn't even know about them. And in all likelihood they are not protected, at all, by US copyright laws.

The only problem is that by sharing them in a public forum, others may copy his ideas (the ones in these scripts) and he will have too prove his ideas were indeed his if he went to publish the works after all. That is his fear.

The copies I have have a cover page which has the title on it, under it written by J. Michael Strazynski. No signature to prove it's even him. No watermarks, no PTO marks, no nothing. Just pages with words on them. No copyright mark, no nothing.

Many years ago I met a man who actually wrote the original screenplay of "I Dream of Jeannie". It was stolen, changed just enough to pass muster and voila "I Dream of Jeannie" was born. He sued, he lost.

Nothing that has not been presented for a copyright seal is protected. Bottom line. How can you protect something you know nothing about.

Bookface.com (if they had been protected by copyright laws) would have printed the copyright emblem and number. This is not included anywhere in the scripts. No liner notes, no nothing. Nada, Zilcho, Zip.

JmS did not protect himself very well, sad but true, and the anger seemed more directed at the certain individual who has been maligning him for years don't you think?

If he wanted to sue at this point, I would think his lawyers advised him against it as the suit would have already started.

The only thing here is that we love JmS, we want him and his work on our TVs, he asked us not to share them any further, and we won't. End of story.




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Colleen L. Stanford
Gideon's Mine, all Mine
(he just doesn't know it yet, LOL)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by drakh:
Originally posted by GideonsMine:
The only problem is that by sharing them in a public forum<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately, regardless of what you think, any commercial business is the public forum and Bookface.com is no exception to that rule. By its very registration, commercial internet site (commercial is public as in anyone can come, view, and even with all the notices informing them not to copy, copy)JmS's contract was with bookface.com and not with the downloadees and technically neither would be liable to JmS. Now please understand I am not saying what they did by their downloads was the right thing to do, what I am saying is that suing them would not bring anything to fruition and as such, a waste.

I actually paid megabucks to buy one of the original scripts by JMS for Crusade (my favorite of the unproduced ones) and see no marks whatsoever to suggest that it was copyrighted to begin with. That may have taken place afterwards when that one was printed, and although legal, would still keep a very cloudy issue, murky at best.

And regardless of the pop up statements that say "do not copy under penalty of law" or words to some general effect as that, to actually gain a judgment when the computer industry has software that will allow anyone to copy virtually anything at this point in time, is literally impossible. I understand that you just clicked an "ok" and that was it.

One of my firms biggest clients DIGEX is purely an internet company in many respects and has been in court many times to protect what it considers its own. It has an will remain a difficult journey.

Just remember Napster. It was not a perfect solution, but it was the only one available at the time. In time, courts may have to adjust to the computer freedom that allows this type of theft to occur and build laws for protection of artists (regardless of type) or the artists, authors, etc. will eventually take their work from the internet and everything will be illegal.

Where do you people get the impression that a commercial retail internet site and business is not in the public forum? Odd you would think that because you are sadly mistaken.

Yes copyright laws exist, the problem is the internet where anyone with the latest equipment can circumvent the laws is one sticky wicket that has not been solved yet due to many many problems.

There are quite a few people on this board B5LR that shared those scripts. Do you think you should be held liable for them being copied? Be honest, do you?

Please understand that the illegality is not the true issue here. JmS can say that this is theft (which in many a sense is even though we may not have understood that at first) but the threat of suit will not come to pass under these circumstances. It is impossible to locate, serve, and prosecute "guilty" parties. Most of the downloadees were probably just avid fans and thought nothing of what they were doing in the final stretch cannot be held liable if the copy job was an easy one. And since bookface.com on the fact at least, honored the contract with JmS, he may be angry, but has no legal argument that can bring him any restitution. And to be honest, at this point, no harm has been done and a good lawyer with a brain will tell him that.

Nuff said. All lawyers are long winded, sorry in advance but I am true to my nature, albeit annoying to a great many.

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Colleen L. Stanford
Gideon's Mine, all Mine
(he just doesn't know it yet, LOL)

[This message has been edited by GideonsMine (edited August 24, 2001).]
 
Here is a website that discusses Copyright thouroughly. Along with links to many Other webites onm the subject:

http://www.kent.k12.wa.us/staff/epeto/copyright/

And a couple excerpts (Fair Use)

Copyright and Licensing
Erica Peto November, 1999

Copyright owners have exclusive rights to:

Reproduce the work
Prepare a derivative work
Distribute the work
Perform the work publicly
Display the work publicly


Establishing Copyright:

In the USA, everything created privately and originally after April 1, 1989 is copyrighted and protected whether it has a notice or not. (Berne Copyright Convention). Copyright is established the moment a work is fixed in tangible form and lasts until 50 years after the author dies.

Fair Use

Four factors are to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use of a copyrighted work is fair:

1. Purpose and character of the use (nonprofit educational use vs. commercial purposes)
2. Nature of the copyrighted work
3. Amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the work as a whole
4. Effect of the use upon potential market for value of the work.


Copyright notice:

Although not necessary, a notice of copyright helps strengthen the protection.

The correct form of notice:

“Copyright [dates] by [author/owner]

You may use © in a circle instead of copyright but not (C) in parentheses.

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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakana:
Here is a website that discusses Copyright thouroughly. Along with links to many Other webites onm the subject:

http://www.kent.k12.wa.us/staff/epeto/copyright/

And a couple excerpts (Fair Use)

Copyright and Licensing
Erica Peto November, 1999

Copyright owners have exclusive rights to:

Reproduce the work
Prepare a derivative work
Distribute the work
Perform the work publicly
Display the work publicly


Establishing Copyright:

In the USA, everything created privately and originally after April 1, 1989 is copyrighted and protected whether it has a notice or not. (Berne Copyright Convention). Copyright is established the moment a work is fixed in tangible form and lasts until 50 years after the author dies.

Fair Use

Four factors are to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use of a copyrighted work is fair:

1. Purpose and character of the use (nonprofit educational use vs. commercial purposes)
2. Nature of the copyrighted work
3. Amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the work as a whole
4. Effect of the use upon potential market for value of the work.


Copyright notice:

Although not necessary, a notice of copyright helps strengthen the protection.

The correct form of notice:

“Copyright [dates] by [author/owner]

You may use © in a circle instead of copyright but not (C) in parentheses.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is true. Please look up "tangible form" in how you have to copyright if you intend to do so.

There has to be something to suggest a copyright exists. Without it, anyone could produce a piece of paper and say they wrote it first. It must be registered if nothing else.

The discussion here is not whether they were or were not copywritten, but in copying them who would be the liable parties if any in a lawsuit.

No matter what the rights and wrongs of things, the internet world is hard to hold under the letter of the law which creates a problem. In time it will be fixed, but right now there is little to none in the line of distinct legal precedent on which to sue. Everything is "new" unbroken ground.



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Colleen L. Stanford
Gideon's Mine, all Mine
(he just doesn't know it yet, LOL)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GideonsMine:
Bookface.com was indeed a commercial site. It was not protected which was sad as many people circumvented without any special expertise and copied the works they had on their site. More than just those Crusade scripts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure what you mean by "not protected". As I understand it, the copies of the scripts were made by retyping them by hand into Microsoft Word. There's absolutely no kind of protection that can prevent that, other than not having them on the web at all.


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