Need help completing quote

[admiraldave]

Dispite the myriad of pages quoting Babylon 5, I have been unable to locate the complete conversation Ivanova and Lorien have about immortality in "Into the Fire". I was hoping to quote part of it in my philosophy paper, so if anyone could assist me, I'd be most appreciative.

Admiral Dave

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[B5_Obsessed]

I don't have their whole conversation, but I found Lorien's final words on the subject:

"To live on as we have is to leave behind joy, and love, and companionship, because we know it to be transitory, of the moment. We know it will turn to ash. Only those, whose lives are brief can imagine that love is eternal. You should embrace that remarkable illusion. It may be the greatest gift your race has ever received."



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"Draal gave Zathras list of things not to say.
This was one. No.... *tsk tsk*
No. Not good.
Not supposed to mention... "one", or... THE one.
Hmmmm.
You never heard that."

 

[Demonn]

Is this enough?

"I was told you were ready to leave."
"Almost. You are awfully impatient for someone who's supposed to be immortal."
"Not immortal as you mean it. My race can die .. through illness or injury."
"Where are the rest of them?"
"They fell ill and died, were injured and died. The rest went away. I am the last .. and I was the first."
"I have to admit I'm a little bit sceptical about that."
"Scepticism is the language of the mind. What does your .. heart tell you?"
"My heart and I don't speak anymore."
"Yes, I have noticed that."
-- Lorien and Ivanova in Babylon 5:"Into the Fire"

I get most of my quote's from here.

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A proud member of the Wind Swords.
"War is life and death is the only true peace."

 

[admiraldave]

Actually, I found those quotes.

What I would like is the lines in between your two quotes. It starts with Ivanova stating that it's impossible to develop the technology for immortality in one lifetime, up to Lorien's pontification on the need for death.

But thanks, I do love those two passages.

Admiral Dave

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[dawnchild]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by B5_Obsessed:
<font color=yellow>To live on as we have is to leave behind joy, and love, and companionship, because we know it to be transitory, of the moment. We know it will turn to ash. Only those, whose lives are brief can imagine that love is eternal. You should embrace that remarkable illusion. It may be the greatest gift your race has ever received." </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

I remember Lorien saying this in the series .. *nods* Almost gives me the shivers .. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Dawnchild wrote:
<font color=yellow>Almost gives me the shivers...</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>Gives me shivers as well. Depressing words said with ultimate conviction... and plain wrong. In my opinion the First Ones had simply forgotten how to change. Their self-imposed confinement in a space they had outgrown was the sole reason behind their deteriorated state.

There was a rather large universe out there to explore. Had they wanted to keep their feelings alive, they should have gone and changed. Found something puzzling and wonderful and new, even for them. The universe is big enough for that. Things can only last in change.

They had stopped changing, stopped exploring and instead waited or fought. It was natural that Lorien thought feelings would turn to ash, after waiting countless millions of years. If I were to wait and do nothing for a year, I would get depressed too.

Besides, while Lorien waited, the spidery and squiddy ones were doing more than turning their own feelings to ash... they were turning the galaxy into ash. That said, Lorien had some thoughtful remarks. This was certainly one. For me, it seems wrong, but deserving of consideration.

 

[PillowRock]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lennier:
<font color=yellow>It was natural that Lorien thought feelings would turn to ash, after waiting countless millions of years.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Now, you see, that isn't quite the meaning that I took from those words. I took the "will turn to ash" phrase to be referring to any given feeling of love, joy, or whatever.

It is certainly true that couples who were once in love sometimes grow apart. I understood Lorien to be saying that, given enough millenia, that will happen to any and all couples. That may, in fact, be true; although it would still be irrelevant to us.

Then I can imagine that, after going through that process a few hundred (or a few thousand) times, eventually just not getting the same kind of emotional response to meeting a new and interesting person of the opposite sex. I know that it is a bit of a poor analogy, but I know that I don't respond the same way as I once did when I paddle a river that I have kayaked a dozen (or two dozen) times before at similar water levels. It is a completely involuntary process that you just don't get quite the same visceral response in your gut. If you extrapolate that over millions (billions?) of years, and include the idea that the low birth rate (and ability to be non-corporeal) likely means lower levels of hormonal bio-chemical drives, then Lorien's race may well have undergone a similar reduction in their response to romance etc.

I am also not sure that he was necessarily including the Vorlons and Shadows as being on his side of that emotional divide. They are still awefully passionate, in their own way, about their respective causes.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>PillowRock wrote:
<font color=yellow>I took the "will turn to ash" phrase to be referring to any given feeling of love, joy, or whatever.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>Then we read it in similar ways. You see, that was what I was addressing by saying that things can only last in change.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr><font color=yellow>It is certainly true that couples who were once in love sometimes grow apart. I understood Lorien to be saying that, given enough millenia, that will happen to any and all couples. That may, in fact, be true...</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>In my opinion, it would be false. Love is subject to change just like everything else. Nothing can remain without changing. If love is to remain, it too should change. If beings who love each other remain unchanged and together for millions of years, love will definitely wear off. They will grow apart. Hell, it can happen to our kind in very short times.

If you want to preserve something, you must let it change. If people/beings love each other and wish it to remain that way, they will have to change. They must learn how to change together. Partly in similar and partly in different directions. If not for anything else, then to remain interesting for each other.

If one human can get to know another in years, the same should apply to first ones. They would be more complex, but their capability to understand is greater. So to avoid feelings turning to ash, one should not confine them. One should always change. Forget something old and gain something new. There is enough in this world to explore.

One should not confine one's curiosity and interests. Time together can only be interesting after time apart. If you stick some fish in a tiny aquarium, even they will feel confined. In case of sentient beings, the effect would be manifold. Beings of vast knowledge and capability in a too small galaxy... can be adequately compared to fish in a too small aquarium.