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Mr. Lennier?
- Thread starter GKarsEye
- Start date
Sinclair
Moderator
I never really thought about that. Good point though. That's probably the real reason Lennier tried to kill Sheridan in the fifth season.
In the deleted scene you hear him shout, "Quit calling me Mister, dammit!!!"
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"I welcome you and present this place to you as a gift. I am called Valen, and we have much work ahead of us."
-Valen, War Without End Pt.2
In the deleted scene you hear him shout, "Quit calling me Mister, dammit!!!"
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"I welcome you and present this place to you as a gift. I am called Valen, and we have much work ahead of us."
-Valen, War Without End Pt.2
Galahad
Regular
The word Mista is Minbari for infertile goat
Hope this explains
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Back when I was a kid in Sunday School, Father Minkowski once said: "Given the crucifixion was a terrible thing for anyone to endure, if you could go back in time 2200 years, would you prevent the crucifixion of Christ?" Well after a heated debate, we all agreed the answer was no. The crucifixion was necessary to redeem the world. - Lt. John Matheson "The Needs of Earth"
"We live for the One. We die for the One!"
Hope this explains
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Back when I was a kid in Sunday School, Father Minkowski once said: "Given the crucifixion was a terrible thing for anyone to endure, if you could go back in time 2200 years, would you prevent the crucifixion of Christ?" Well after a heated debate, we all agreed the answer was no. The crucifixion was necessary to redeem the world. - Lt. John Matheson "The Needs of Earth"
"We live for the One. We die for the One!"
A_Ranger
Regular
Perhaps referring to Lennier as "Mister" helped Sheridan remember Lennier was a guy. All them Minbari look so damn alike, it's hard to tell
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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it
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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
You'll notice that Sheridan only addresses Lennier as "Mr. Lennier" when he's commanding a ship. Force of habit/gesture of respect. There doesn't seem to be much of a formal chain-of-command, but if there were Lennier would be an officer, and would be addressed as "Mister" or by his rank. Since Lennier doesn't have a rank Sheridan uses "Mister" Enlisted ranks go by last name only, NCOs by title. So it would be disrespectful to address Lennier simply as Lennier in that context.
After all, Spock was called "Mister Spock" in Star Trek and that wasn't his last name. The services in both fictional universe derived their traditions from Earth navies.
Regards,
Joe
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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
After all, Spock was called "Mister Spock" in Star Trek and that wasn't his last name. The services in both fictional universe derived their traditions from Earth navies.
Regards,
Joe
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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
GKarsEye
Regular
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>You'll notice that Sheridan only addresses Lennier as "Mr. Lennier" when he's commanding a ship. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are you sure about that? I thought he did it sometimes in other situations.
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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
Are you sure about that? I thought he did it sometimes in other situations.
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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
*Sigh*
Regular
i thought he called him Mister Lennier all the time.
i didn't like that. it was creepy.
it was like saying he was kind of like Morden.
Mr. Lennier
Mr. Morden.
yuck.
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"Would it be wrong, would it be right, if i took my life to night? Chances are that i might." -Papa Roach-
i didn't like that. it was creepy.
it was like saying he was kind of like Morden.
Mr. Lennier
Mr. Morden.
yuck.
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"Would it be wrong, would it be right, if i took my life to night? Chances are that i might." -Papa Roach-
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I thought he did it sometimes in other situations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Possibly. I mostly remember it in the context of the White Star, and disntinctly recall his using just "Lennier" in other settings. It may be that in other situations where Sheridan was acting as a military commander that he also used "Mr. Lennier", even when he wasn't directly commanding a ship. But I'm pretty sure that Sheridan was pretty consistent about using just the name when he wasn't wearing his "military hat." *
Regards,
Joe
[edited to add:]
* Even if Sheridan does ever call Lennier "Mr." outside a strictly military context, that doesn't make it an error. Ex-military types often address each other as they did in the service, even long after retirement. It would be a habit, but still one rooted in traditions of military courtesy, from Sheridan's perspective, in no way disrespectful. Delenn he sometimes referred to as "Ambassador", but as someone of equal command authority to his own, he would no more address her as "Ms." than the skipper of a U.S. warship would call a fellow captain, "Mr. Jones" "Capt" or even "Bill" would be appropriate, but never "Mr."
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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
[This message has been edited by Joseph DeMartino (edited January 29, 2002).]
Possibly. I mostly remember it in the context of the White Star, and disntinctly recall his using just "Lennier" in other settings. It may be that in other situations where Sheridan was acting as a military commander that he also used "Mr. Lennier", even when he wasn't directly commanding a ship. But I'm pretty sure that Sheridan was pretty consistent about using just the name when he wasn't wearing his "military hat." *
Regards,
Joe
[edited to add:]
* Even if Sheridan does ever call Lennier "Mr." outside a strictly military context, that doesn't make it an error. Ex-military types often address each other as they did in the service, even long after retirement. It would be a habit, but still one rooted in traditions of military courtesy, from Sheridan's perspective, in no way disrespectful. Delenn he sometimes referred to as "Ambassador", but as someone of equal command authority to his own, he would no more address her as "Ms." than the skipper of a U.S. warship would call a fellow captain, "Mr. Jones" "Capt" or even "Bill" would be appropriate, but never "Mr."
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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
[This message has been edited by Joseph DeMartino (edited January 29, 2002).]
The more I think about it, there were very few occasions during the series when Sheridan actually called Lennier by name except in Season 5 when he was yelling at Lennier to unlock the door in Objects at Rest. Then he definitely shouted Lennier, open the door, Lennier, Lennier......
Most of the times were as Joe said, when then were on the White Star and Mr. Lennier was a courtesy title.
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I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
Most of the times were as Joe said, when then were on the White Star and Mr. Lennier was a courtesy title.
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I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
GKarsEye
Regular
Yeah Joe, I figured that even if he called him "Mister" outside the Whitestar, it still wouldn't mean you were wrong. I'm just being a typical sci-fi nitpickying dork.
Whether intentional or not, Sheridan calling him "Mister Lennier" serves another dramatic purpose: it accentuates the distant, formal relationship between them. No matter what crap they went through together, despite their close relationships with Lennier, they would never be friends. We've seen those Ally McBeal-ish tender moments between Sheridan and Garibaldi, Ivanova, and Franklin, where he treats them as close friends, addressing them by their first name. The only attempts to do so with Lennier were awkward and ugly.
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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
Whether intentional or not, Sheridan calling him "Mister Lennier" serves another dramatic purpose: it accentuates the distant, formal relationship between them. No matter what crap they went through together, despite their close relationships with Lennier, they would never be friends. We've seen those Ally McBeal-ish tender moments between Sheridan and Garibaldi, Ivanova, and Franklin, where he treats them as close friends, addressing them by their first name. The only attempts to do so with Lennier were awkward and ugly.
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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
RW7427
Super Moderator
I just watched episode 3.1 "Matters of Honor" last night, and Sheridan calls him Mr. Lennier in it while they take their first trip out in the Whitestar.
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Dulann: You don't solve your problems by hitting them.
David Martel: Yeah, well, it made me feel better.
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Dulann: You don't solve your problems by hitting them.
David Martel: Yeah, well, it made me feel better.
Remember Lenier had family on the Blackstar and their first meeting is Lenier keeping Sheridan away from Delenn(cacoon version). Not the best start.
Also soon after Sheridan's eye wanders to Delenn. I wouldn't expect anything more than civility.
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"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny
Also soon after Sheridan's eye wanders to Delenn. I wouldn't expect anything more than civility.
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"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny
Oh-oh stirring up a hornets nest here. "Mr lennier", "mr Spock", "Mr Baggins"
I think it's all a monumental copyright! A conspiracy to make even the Centauri Gods sober up
Seriously though I think it's a sign of respect, probably akin to his view of an XO on an essentially alien crew. No human chain of commands to follow. Don't compromise, Improvise!
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"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"
I think it's all a monumental copyright! A conspiracy to make even the Centauri Gods sober up
Seriously though I think it's a sign of respect, probably akin to his view of an XO on an essentially alien crew. No human chain of commands to follow. Don't compromise, Improvise!
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"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"
lennier....i dunno, but i think i would have a helluva lot of trouble being him. hell. it'd be a nightmare.
- i mean, he starts out pretty innocent about the universe.
- he loves delenn, but KNOWS that she's fated for another; so his unrequited true love will never be returned- which majorly sucks.
- he had family on the blackstar, which was destroyed by the man who delenn falls for.
- the universe hates him and conspires to force him to be around as delenn and sheridan fall in love
- all his life, he has had service and loyalty drilled into him; he has dedicated himself to delenn's side, but then has an internal battle between love and service (ow?)
- for one miniscule moment love wins the battle and he BETRAYS the anla'shok; he is shamed beyond belief- suicide might not be out of the question, especially considering everything else
- he lets doubly down delenn (who can forgive, knowing his great inner battle) when he betrays the anla'shok and almost kills delenn's true love
- he probably has nightmares about sheridan calling his name and later the looks on sheridan's and delenn's faces...
- im positive there's more but i cant think of any
....poor lennier
blah. all this and i haven't actually seen season 5 =( i preordered the dvds but there's another month to wait
- i mean, he starts out pretty innocent about the universe.
- he loves delenn, but KNOWS that she's fated for another; so his unrequited true love will never be returned- which majorly sucks.
- he had family on the blackstar, which was destroyed by the man who delenn falls for.
- the universe hates him and conspires to force him to be around as delenn and sheridan fall in love
- all his life, he has had service and loyalty drilled into him; he has dedicated himself to delenn's side, but then has an internal battle between love and service (ow?)
- for one miniscule moment love wins the battle and he BETRAYS the anla'shok; he is shamed beyond belief- suicide might not be out of the question, especially considering everything else
- he lets doubly down delenn (who can forgive, knowing his great inner battle) when he betrays the anla'shok and almost kills delenn's true love
- he probably has nightmares about sheridan calling his name and later the looks on sheridan's and delenn's faces...
- im positive there's more but i cant think of any
....poor lennier
blah. all this and i haven't actually seen season 5 =( i preordered the dvds but there's another month to wait
darth_librarian
Regular
watched eps 2.1 and 2.2 recently, noticed he does it in then, right from the begining when Lennier introduces the new Delenn to the council.
This has always bugged me. i figured it was a Star Trek reference, or just one of Sheridans quirks JMS was playing up on.
This has always bugged me. i figured it was a Star Trek reference, or just one of Sheridans quirks JMS was playing up on.
Ninja_Squirrel
Regular
I could have sworn Garibaldi has called him "Mister" before too. A good place to look would be the episode in which Lennier finishes the motorcycle for Garibaldi (don't remember which one that is). After Sheridan, Garibaldi would probably be the next most likely to refer to him that way.
If someone were to dig hard enough, I wouldn't be surprised if several others called him "Mister" too, especially Ivanova, Franklin, Zack, and Lyta. Marcus may not have since he would be more in tune with Minbari having singular names.
If someone were to dig hard enough, I wouldn't be surprised if several others called him "Mister" too, especially Ivanova, Franklin, Zack, and Lyta. Marcus may not have since he would be more in tune with Minbari having singular names.
