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LIVING for The One(spoilers)

Recoil

Recoil

Regular
Well folks, I finally got around to re-watching and editing out the commercials from my VCR Tape copy of Rangers that I taped off Sci-Fi. Watching it a second time, I noticed a lot of things that didn't jump out at me the first time. 'Living' for The One was one of these things.

This was a subtle part of B5:LoTR that I was glad to see in it. It was somewhat played up a bit before it aired by Dulann's 'interview' teaser ad. In the movie though, it was much more suttle.

G'Kar had made a comment in front of the Rangers Coucil as to 'We Live for The One, We Die for The One' being funny that most of the focus seems to be on the 'dying' part, and that shouldn't it be as honorable to LIVE for The One? I think it is one of the core concepts that original B5 had tried to get across --- embracing life

This to me totally was reminicent to Sheridan's dialogue with Lorien in 'Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi.' Lorien was trying to tell Sheridan that this may be one of the biggest understandings in the Universe. Lorien: "You can't turn away from death simply because you're afraid of what might happen without you. That's not enough! You're not embracing life. You're fleeing death." He also said "It is easy to find something worth dying for, do you have anything worth LIVING for?"

I think G'Kar's comment was similar to this, which I have always felt was a core theme to B5. It is more honorable to live for a person or a cause, than to die for one. When you die, your struggle is over. Dedicating your life is more of a challenge, and much harder. Seeing this as perhaps a new way for the Rangers to view their tradition was neat. I just saw it as a parallel that that was kind of neat, and I am sure was there for a reason.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK
 
Oi! A great post to which I want to reply a quote from Mr. Garibaldi. Gr..can't find the quote but I'll try to get the idea.

"I don't think Minbari are gentically able to run from a fight."

Translates too..We die for the one, we die for the one! :p

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This relates to one of JMS' goals with a Rangers series: while the Rangers were around in B5, with one of them being a recurring character, we never really got to explore them. The new series would go into Ranger and Minbari philosophy, possibly with the Liandra crew mixing things up a bit for the Anlashok. The post-First One galaxy is a very different place and requires a new breed of Rangers to deal with it.

The concept of living for something versus dying for something is also very relevant in real life today. This series has so much potential to be a fantastic reflection of our times as well as a fine piece of entertainment. It almost makes me regret the Patriots game was so good.

Almost.
smile.gif


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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
Possible SPOILER, SPOiler, Spoiler, spoiler... for those who haven't completed the B5 series yet...

Very impressive connection you between the two shows. It seems to me that Lorien was sort of JMS's voice for alot of the deeper philosophy he was putting into B5, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if many connections show up between Lorienisms and concepts in the new Rangers (series??).
Personally, I feel like the 2 to 3 episodes following Sheridan's Fall at Zha ha Dum (or is it Zha ha DOOM?
smile.gif
) were perhaps the most meaningful of the whole B5 series.
Except, perhaps, for Zathras and his "you cannot run out of time. There is infinite amount of time. You are finite, Zathras is finite, this ... is wrong tool."
laugh.gif


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"Humanity IS my business"
or the always popular
"You can get farther with a kind word and a 2 b four, than you can with just a kind word"
 
Don't forget Franklin's big scene when he "met" himself.
He also had to decide if he had anything worth Living for.

There is an especially ironic echo in Marcus.
Ivanova didn't Want him to die for her.
In many ways, it was the Cruelest thing anyone had ever done to her, and she'd been pretty unlucky in her personal relationships.

Everyone she ever cared about Died.
Her mother(Suicide), brother(war), father(illness), Talia(butchered by PsyCorps)...

Then there was the ex-boyfriend who tried to Use her to set up an assasination...

Ivanova's got to be feeling like the world's biggest jinx.

And then Marcus comes along and kicks her in the teeth (emotionally) by Dying to save her life.
Survivor guilt is bad enough.
We don't even have a name for what Ivanova would feel over That.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

[This message has been edited by bakana (edited February 08, 2002).]
 
"A very Russian" tragedy. It sure was the last way I expected Marcus Cole to ... die?? (see credit roll of last episode Asleep in the Light)
Marcus just never could forgive himself for loosing all his family, and sacrificing himself for Susie must have been his best idea to balance the scales. Talking about survivors guilt, Ivanova and Cole added up to carry enough for a whole universe of people.
shocked.gif


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"Humanity IS my business"
or the always popular
"You can get farther with a kind word and a 2 b four, than you can with just a kind word"
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
It almost makes me regret the Patriots game was so good. Almost.
smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Don't ... get me ... started ...
tongue.gif




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"You are all in violation of security ordinance 22V3A. That means get the hell out of here!
"
- Zack
 
And, of course, it was quite appropriate for G'Kar to note this - that it's important to *live* for a cause, not to die for it.

Wasn't it what he was doing when Cartagia had him whipped? He was ready to die, he'd much rather have died at that point than screamed (and lived), since it was a matter of honour - and yet he chose to give Cartagia what he wanted and live, not because of himself but because of the greater cause (liberating his homeworld).

Sometimes, dying for the cause is all that can be done (Ranger Ericson showed that), but a dead man can't fight for the cause after that (well, usually, they can also wander about as ghosts and drop little hints to seriously hurt first officers) - while a man who lives for the cause, or the one, can do good for the cause over and over again.

I loved how a Narn had to explain that to the Ranger council, probably consisting of (mostly) the Minbari.
laugh.gif


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"There are things out there beyond imagination, and I have a rather healthy imagination." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com | Kribu.net
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kribu:
And, of course, it was quite appropriate for G'Kar to note this - that it's important to *live* for a cause, not to die for it.

Wasn't it what he was doing when Cartagia had him whipped? He was ready to die, he'd much rather have died at that point than screamed (and lived), since it was a matter of honour - and yet he chose to give Cartagia what he wanted and live, not because of himself but because of the greater cause (liberating his homeworld).

Sometimes, dying for the cause is all that can be done (Ranger Ericson showed that), but a dead man can't fight for the cause after that (well, usually, they can also wander about as ghosts and drop little hints to seriously hurt first officers) - while a man who lives for the cause, or the one, can do good for the cause over and over again.

I loved how a Narn had to explain that to the Ranger council, probably consisting of (mostly) the Minbari.
laugh.gif


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sometimes you realy gota wonder about what Sinclair was teaching the Rangers when he established them. More surprising given his EA background and the fact that on Earth even today the concept that staying alive and fighting another day is a much better thing to do then going out in an impresive but utterly useles blaze of Glory.

I guess though he was trapped by the future. Thats how it was in the future so thats clearly how it had to be done. Frigen Vorlons
tongue.gif




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I guess it's entirely possible that Sinclair laid the stress on *living* for the one - but over the thousand years the emphasis shifted.

After all, a lot changed, even in a society as rigid as that of the Minbari - and the Rangers themselves were not all that popular (as good as forgotten, it would almost seem) by the 2250s.

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"There are things out there beyond imagination, and I have a rather healthy imagination." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com | Kribu.net
 
Who knows what Sinclair actually said and did as Valen? We see him trying to explain reason and the value of life to people in the comic "In Valen's Name." But he is a legend, an almost mythological character. Much would have been distorted, forgotten, and added.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
Who knows what Sinclair actually said and did as Valen? We see him trying to explain reason and the value of life to people in the comic "In Valen's Name." But he is a legend, an almost mythological character. Much would have been distorted, forgotten, and added.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Which is exactly what we saw happening to Sheridan and the gang in Deconstuction of Falling Stars.



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Garibaldi: "Someone's trying to frame me for the explosion in the Cobra bay. They planted a schematic of the bay and a pouch of Centauri ducats in my quarters."
Londo: "Cen-tar-ri?"
Garibaldi: "Cen-tau-ri."
Londo: "Po-tay-to?"
Garibaldi: "Po-tah-to."
Londo: "To-may-to?"
Garibaldi: "To-mah-to."
Londo: "(and Garibaldi) Let's call the whole thing off!" Downbelow Sound Archive
 
Hi all! Interesting topic!

I would expect that Sinclair didn't really teach the Minbari this outlook. Some part of it is inherent in Minbarir thinking, I would imagine. Sinclair had to overcome a number of little problems in Minbari outlook. He ended civil unrest by forming the council and giving them a new framework. I would guess, though, that a lot can be lost over a thousand years. Dying needlessly is not a survival trait. Never giving in can be useful in intimidating with terror, but ultimately strict interpretaion of never fleeing the field of battle would eventually be a major problem. The Rangers, though, had 1000 years in which the were simply gathering intelligence and not combating an enemy force. No doubt, they had small skirmishes, but nothing like the Shadow war and beyond. Even at that, their nujmbers were greatly diminished leading up to the events in B5. Some of that probably came from a stubborn adherence to their distorted memory of Valen's teachings. It is now being tested in the crucible of war, unrest and now a new mission.

Just my thoughts.

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"Tastes like chicken." -- Mack
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> "The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his."
General George S. Patton <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd bet that Sinclair/Valen did his best to teach the Rangers this.
but, just as they turned the Rangers into a "Minbari Only" organization after Valen was gone, so they concentrated only on the parts of his teaching that made "Minbari Sense".

Those of us who read "In Valen's name" saw how another Alien Race turned Valen's teachings into something truly frightening by going through the exact same process.

Just like Christian & Muslim Fundies manage to turn "love one another" into justification for Hate by twisting it into something ugly.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

[This message has been edited by bakana (edited February 09, 2002).]
 
Good point Bakana. I LOVE that Patton quote too. It is seriously one of my favorite all time quotes.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK
 
At the time Sinclair had to unite the Minbari in a battle against an enemy that did not allow retreats. For this purpose the the live for the one die for the one thing could have made more sense.

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"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> a battle against an enemy that did not allow retreats. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was never said that the Shadows didn't Allow retreats.
The problem was that most of the time no one got a Choice because the Shadows killed them in the first pass.
But, the shadow strategy wasn't Extermination.
It was to kick a race in the teeth so hard that they'd need a thousand years to Heal.
Once they decided the "weaker" members of the group were weeded out, the Shadows would go away.
Until the Next time.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakana:
It was never said that the Shadows didn't Allow retreats.
The problem was that most of the time no one got a Choice because the Shadows killed them in the first pass.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Check The Long Twilight Struggle. The Narn are already retreating, but the Shadows disrupt the jumppoints, destroying the ships.
It might be that they _sometimes_ allow retreats, but here they clearly don't, and the mere existence of such a weapon suggests that they like to make a point out of not allowing retreat.

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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)
 
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