JMS's reaction to criticism

[Almir]

JMS\'s reaction to criticism

After reading the whole JMS interview for Newsrama on comicom.com through the link posted by Anthony, I checked their message board and the majority of the members had the same reaction as I did.
It's very strange, the way JMS reacts to criticism of any kind.
Personally, I think he's a great writer (I would like to know more like him), and, obviously, loved the way he told the story of Babylon 5 and the stories of Rising Stars and Midnight Nation. OTOH I think he shouldn't take this criticism (what? 10% of the opinions about him) so hard.
And today I read what he said about his late work on the moderated newsgroup and when two person were talking mostly nice things about him, he jumps like a wild cat over one little (and correct)thing. He made a comparison between his lateness of deadlines with somebody that promise his family to go to the beach, but in the last minute, delays it due to workload. The only problem is that is a lot easyer to deal with your family, than hundreds of thousands of fans around the world. Criticism is not crucification and every public person should be prepared for criticism. And most of all this 10% of criticism that he gets, comes from his faithfull fans.

Note that I have no problems with this delays on the comics. The more work he have, the more thrilled I am.
My problem is with his erratic reactions.

Almir

------------------

 

[AntonyF]

Re: JMS\'s reaction to criticism

Yeah, I have to agree. If something positive happens, he's fine. But anything negative, he feels he has to react. Sometimes it's best just to let things go, ignore them.

Plus I saw the reaction he had to a friend on a very innocent request, which wasn't too nice.


------------------
My candle burns at both its ends,
It will not last the night.
But oh my foes, and oh my friends,
It makes a lovely light.

 

[Technomage Roanna]

Re: JMS\'s reaction to criticism

You know, I think JMS does react out of proportion sometimes, and his lips (or his keyboard in this case) sometimes outruns his better judgement.

He's hardly alone in this aspect of his personality. And frankly, his internet presence brings him an incredible $h*tload of abuse from people who, if they really could do it so much better should be doing so.

That doesn't even count the genuine nutters with a keyboard. So I tend to cut him a little slack. I know for myself I want to react to a lot of stuff I see on line, and hold myself back (yes, I do, close that gaping jaw, you lot...) on probably 3/4s of the stuff that I think is uncalled for. Because people are entitled to think whatever they think, and because arguing with them about it often leads to nothing but more arguments with no satisfactory conclusion.

So don't argue with me about this, it's futile.

Ro

------------------
A ship in a port is safe, but that's not what ships are for.

Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Re: JMS\'s reaction to criticism

It's a freggin comic book trying to express emotions of the real world in the metaphor that is fantasy, and instead of looking at the message, they get pissed off because the metaphor isn't literal. I think ignoring the point to get caught up in the details of would doom crying is pretty damn retarded. But I wouldn't have worded it like JMS did, he took a cheapshot, although the people may have deserved it, it doesn't change the fact it was cheap.

And don't take one example to mean he does this all the time, it's the leap of logic fallacy. Generalizations and assumptions are never good, which is why JMS is in the doghouse to begin with... so doing it back to him only displays hypocrisy. JMS is often open to intelligent criticism, he has often heeded fans opinions. For example not too long ago someone complained about the fight scenes and how they were pretty bad (I would say pathetic, but thats me), JMS admitted that they were and is obviously trying to change that fact with Rangers.

Just my lonely opinion.

------------------
Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light

 

[milenium3]

Re: JMS\'s reaction to criticism

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:


And don't take one example to mean he does this all the time, it's the leap of logic fallacy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I´m in this B5-on-the-net thing for about five years and I can assure you that this happened many times before. I wouldn't post a topic like this just because of this Spiderman thing.

As for the fight scenes that were criticised and he accepted, I may be wrong but THAT is one thing that doesn't happens everytime. It was that " one example " that you mentioned above.

And finally, fight scenes on B5 ( with the exception of one or two and I don't wanna go into that) were irrelevant for the story and I wouldn't put those questions (wich I also read) in the "intelligent criticism" section.

Almir

------------------


[This message has been edited by milenium3 (edited January 11, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by milenium3 (edited January 11, 2002).]

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Re: JMS\'s reaction to criticism

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by milenium3:
I´m in this B5-on-the-net thing for about five years and I can assure you that this happened many times before. I wouldn't post a topic like this just because of this Spiderman thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are differences between criticism, being plain wrong, ignorent etc. Most of his colourful posts are directed at the ignorent complaining about false conclusions, trolls, people who break the law or those who get their 'facts' wrong. Such as SFX who turned out to be trolls playing journalists. And although your intention may have been to represent more than you were, you have not provided evidence of this. What I mean is, when you accuse a guy of not being able to take criticism on it's own then provide proof.

With the spider-man deal, the argument made by many (the poster being polite was irrelevant as JMS was addressing everyone who had a problem) was he could not be trusted to keep to deadlines. He gives a testimant that he has not missed a deadline in 30 years of writing, yet on this one short delay alone people are off on a tangent saying he can't be trusted? I mean c'mon, do you really think the man is gonna take that obviously FALSE conclusion based on selective evidence (1 out of god knows how many writing projects)?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>As for the fight scenes that were criticised and he accepted, I may be wrong but THAT is one thing that doesn't happens everytime. It was that " one example " that you mentioned above.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erm, magazines, websites etc. often criticise his work, only when they're unprofessional does he have a problem. Often he only complains when their is a FAULT in logic. Such as someone misrepresenting opinion as fact. What do you expect, him to comment on every criticism he considers fine and say "Well done", he'd be there for days.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>And finally, fight scenes on B5 ( with the exception of one or two and I don't wanna go into that) were irrelevant for the story and I wouldn't put those questions (wich I also read) in the "intelligent criticism" section.

Almir<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is the most recent I could think of, however the irrelevance. Because usually he does not complain about criticism unless there is something wrong with it (such as lies). And with the spider-man example, the complaints about the delay are hardly well founded. It'd be like someone going up to their boss and saying "Damnit! Get a new god damn computer, my one takes 5 minutes longer to load every 1 out of a few thousand (even more) boot-ups".

------------------
Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light

 

[gkarfan]

Re: JMS\'s reaction to criticism

The trolls who go after JMS are pretty creepy. I've had run-ins online with them myself, & I have felt like I just want to throttle them. I can see why the moderated newsgroup had to be established. Maybe JMS isn't perfect, but the trolls can be even worse.

Tammy

------------------

"We're in here! Can anyone hear us?"
"I hear you." [giggle, laugh]
"In here!"
"We are here." [giggle, laugh]
-- Londo and G'Kar in Babylon 5:"Convictions"

Tammy's Station
http://community.webtv.net/gkarfan/TammysStation

 

[drakh]

Re: JMS\'s reaction to criticism

We all have our buttons that set us off, though after years of online battles, jms probably has more visible ones than most. But if you treat him and his viewpoint with respect, and don't make any assumptions in absence of facts, he's one of the more reasonable individuals I can think of.

Basically, it's the old saying - You get what you give.

I certainly didn't get him to write about his feelings on Crusade's quality with a line like "Jms, face it - Crusade sucked and you're obivously past your prime."

------------------
"Nonono... It's an omen. It's a higher power trying to tell me through bunnies that we're all gonna die! Oh god!" (hear it)
-- Anya, "The Gift", Buffy the Vampire Slayer

drakh@spamcop.net

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Re: JMS\'s reaction to criticism

I suspect that JMS's conscience was bothering him. You do not meet deadlines for 30 years without thinking that they are important.

------------------
Andrew Swallow

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: JMS\'s reaction to criticism

The mighty GKarsEye uses a term called Artists' Immunity. Basically, it gives gifted people the right to occasionally act weird or troublesome, allowing them to add things to the world that otherwise would not have come about.

Thelonious Monk would hold himself up in a room for 4 days and just pace back and forth. Harlan Ellison's attitude is infamous. Charlie Parker was an extremely unreliable person.

They were cut a little slack because those in the know understood that these people are special, so they tolerated their nonsense. It's not fair, but that's the way it is.

I don't know if JMS overreacts to criticism, and frankly I don't care. The only thing he "says" that I care about is in his work. But let's assume he's a total jerk. Ok, so let him be one. If you don't like it, don't talk to him.

Frankly, I don't even understand why he bothers with this stuff. I wonder if all of this communication with the fans and critics actually makes more than a small impact on the work.

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Re: JMS\'s reaction to criticism

I've had the fun of reading Joe's posts since the early to mid 80's on the SciFi Forum on Compuserve (before B5 was anything but a gleam in his eye

), so I think I've been reading his stuff long enough to comment.

He's brilliant, funny, sarcastic, and endlessly willing to answer questions BUT he does *not* suffer fools gladly. When asked stupid or off-topic questions, you'd better shoot off the remark and run for the hills, because you may not like the answer.

And believe me, he's been asked some doozies. I can still remember the Trekkie who insisted that com units couldn't go on the back of the hand "because everyone knows they're worn on the chest." And the guy was serious.

I'm sure Joe's level of patience has gone down as his work load has gone up (as it does with most of us).

------------------

 

[channe]

Re: JMS\'s reaction to criticism

I agree with Rhea.

Those of us who are compulsive workaholic perfectionists understand completely. Saying that to JMS is like telling me (five classes, three jobs, 80-page thesis, fulbright nominee, graduating magna cum laude) that I'm lazy.

If you do, you're gonna get a smackdown, and that's all there is to it.

------------------
channe@[url="http://cryoterrace.tripod.com"]cryoterrace[/url] | "I wonder," said Frodo, "but I don't know. And that's the way of a real tale."

 

[PsionTen]

Re: JMS\'s reaction to criticism

I agree with the president. For someone in his position, he should let these things roll off his back. Whenever he does go off, which seems to be often, he just alienates more people. All celebrities should essentially take a page from the Micahel Jordon Instuitute of Public Relations -- (1) keep your mouth shut about everything other than your job (2) smile a lot and look non-threatening (3) compliment the other players in your field, but make sure you always mention how good you are.

------------------
"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

[This message has been edited by PsionTen (edited January 17, 2002).]

 

[PsionTen]

Re: JMS\'s reaction to criticism

----I seriously doubt that most celebrities hang around to answer detailed questions about what they do on a day-to-day-basis----

I thought that's what atheletes did after games. I covered press conferences before and those guys are there for hours, especially if its after an important victory. I'd put the hours these guys put in (as far as dealing with the public/fans) up against JMS and any other writer.

-------What Joe does when he interacts with fans online is a lot different from your run of the mill celebrity who makes a few public appearances, does some interviews, signs autographs and then goes home.-----------

If that's true then its an ever better reason to keep cool and not blow-up at people.

------ So while all of that sounds good, I don't think it works IRL.-----------------

Well I dunno. I think people are able to control their tempers in the cyber world as they do in the real world


------Having also spent some time at the Slipstream hanging out with Robert Hewitt Wolfe, who created Andromeda, and the writing staff of that show, I can tell you from experience that while most of the time they are funny, brilliant and a joy to be around, they get snarky sometimes too.
---------------------------------------------

I spent some time there as well, and I don't recall any of them going off on people. But if they did, then I think they should take lessons from Michael Jordon as well.

-----They're only human, folks.--------------

Hey, I'm from the South. We don't have excuses for bad manners down here.

------------------
"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

[This message has been edited by PsionTen (edited January 17, 2002).]

 

[MartinRoth]

Re: JMS\'s reaction to criticism

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rhea:
I'm sure Joe's level of patience has gone down as his work load has gone up (as it does with most of us).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can second all of what you posted above, even though I've only been reading Joe's Compuserve posts since the late 80's, when B5 was a well-formed concept but still not an actual TV show

. I'll also suggest that hearing the exact same crap over and over again probably has something to do with it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:
I covered press conferences before and those guys are there for hours, especially if its after an important victory.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Emphasis added. And that's a huge point. You're comparing Joe's response to things that often go beyond simple criticism to the reactions of other people when something good has just happened. Hardly seems fair.

Also, keep in mind that Joe tends to give real answers rather than cheap cliches. He respects the fans -- most of the fans, at least -- and has made it clear that he feels people who ask serious questions deserve serious answers.* So I suspect he feels a bit betrayed when he feels -- rightly or wrongly -- that he isn't getting the same respect back.

(* As I discovered several years back, to my great embarrasment, when I asked a fairly annoying question purely tongue in cheek and he took it seriously...)


------------------
-- Marty
"Always do what you're good at," they tell me.
So I go around annoying people.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Re: JMS\'s reaction to criticism

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:
I agree with the president. For someone in his position, he should let these things roll off his back. Whenever he does go off, which seems to be often, he just alienates more people. All celebrities should essentially take a page from the Micahel Jordon Instuitute of Public Relations -- (1) keep your mouth shut about everything other than your job (2) smile a lot and look non-threatening (3) compliment the other players in your field, but make sure you always mention how good you are.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I seriously doubt that most celebrities hang around to answer detailed questions about what they do on a day-to-day-basis. What Joe does when he interacts with fans online is a lot different from your run of the mill celebrity who makes a few public appearances, does some interviews, signs autographs and then goes home.

So while all of that sounds good, I don't think it works IRL. Having also spent some time at the Slipstream hanging out with Robert Hewitt Wolfe, who created Andromeda, and the writing staff of that show, I can tell you from experience that while most of the time they are funny, brilliant and a joy to be around, they get snarky sometimes too.

They're only human, folks.



------------------

 

[PsionTen]

Re: JMS\'s reaction to criticism

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Emphasis added. And that's a huge point. You're comparing Joe's response to things that often go beyond simple criticism to the reactions of other people when something good has just happened. Hardly seems fair.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, you want fair? When's the last time JMS cried in public? I saw an NFL coach cry for nearly thirty minutes after the last game of the season. You want criticism? How would you like it if your team missed the playoffs because you missed a field goal AND THEN have everyone in the country calling you an idiot and threatening to blow up your house!

Its nice that JMS communicates with his fans, but don't make excuses for the man. There's far too many other people in our society that are put under closer microscopes and they don't blow up at unsuspecting fans.

------------------
"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

 

[MartinRoth]

Re: JMS\'s reaction to criticism

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:
When's the last time JMS cried in public? I saw an NFL coach cry for nearly thirty minutes after the last game of the season. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no idea whether JMS cries in public or not. Given that almost all of my interaction with him has been in text form, I'd hardly be able to tell whether he was crying when he wrote the words I was reading.

And if I had the time to waste, I could compile a nice list of articles from the course of this NFL season where NFL coaches (and players) reacted pretty damn badly themselves.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> There's far too many other people in our society that are put under closer microscopes and they don't blow up at unsuspecting fans. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And there are plenty of others who blow up in worse ways. The name Albert Belle springs to mind. Or Latrell Sprewell.

People react differently to different things. And, yes, JMS can be a pain in the ass at times when he overreacts. I've been a target once or twice, for things that I felt didn't deserve that kind of reaction. But he's certainly not the only public figure that offends in that manner, and he's certainly not the worst of the lot.


------------------
-- Marty
"Always do what you're good at," they tell me.
So I go around annoying people.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Re: JMS\'s reaction to criticism

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Oh, you want fair? When's the last time JMS cried in public? I saw an NFL coach cry for nearly thirty minutes after the last game of the season. You want criticism? How would you like it if your team missed the playoffs because you missed a field goal AND THEN have everyone in the country calling you an idiot and threatening to blow up your house!

Its nice that JMS communicates with his fans, but don't make excuses for the man. There's far too many other people in our society that are put under closer microscopes and they don't blow up at unsuspecting fans.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, being a former reporter and a hockey/football fan, I can tell you that after bad losses, they do react badly, blowing off or yelling at fans after practices or the games. Hey, they're human. In my opinion, JMS suffers fools a bit better than athletes. (I guess you forgot the computer virus that wiped out JMS's hard drive, or the threats he got for the whole Claudia Christian situation).

To bring the discussion back to the Spider-Man thing....I read the same interview and reactions. From Joe's point of view, the people writing them were putting the integrity of ink characters over a real and tragic event. That rankled him, and he responded. Was it harsh? Yep, but it was honest, and in my opinion, deserved. 'Twas ironic that JMS's comment led to a renewed discussion of the scene.

EDIT: Deleted a misconception.

------------------
It's the quiet ones who change the universe. The loud ones only take the credit.

[This message has been edited by Kalen Efran (edited January 20, 2002).]

 

[PsionTen]

Re: JMS\'s reaction to criticism

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I could compile a nice list of articles from the course of this NFL season where NFL coaches (and players) reacted pretty damn badly themselves.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but I'd hope that JMS would be above the "everyody else blows up too" explanation.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> People react differently to different things. And, yes, JMS can be a pain in the ass at times when he overreacts. I've been a target once or twice, for things that I felt didn't deserve that kind of reaction. But he's certainly not the only public figure that offends in that manner, and he's certainly not the worst of the lot.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who said he was? I pretty much think all of the guys who behave in that way are jerks ... why should JMS be given special treatment?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> In my opinion, JMS suffers fools a bit better than athletes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depends on which athletes and at which times. I'd put Michael Jordan up against JMS any day in that competition.

------------------
"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."