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Ivanova's family changed its name

Ivanova\'s family changed its name

I heard recently from a fellow fan that when the Czar ordered all Russians to take last names as a westernization move, he made a separate list for Jews, and the name Ivanov (Ivanoff?) was not on it. So I checked with one of the many Russians in my office, and she confirmed that Ivanova is most definitely *not* a Jewish Russian name. JMS goofed. Alternatively, going with the script as written (meaning that I'm making this up after the fact :) ) the family changed its name during the Soviet era to avoid dealing with anti-Semitism.
 
Re: Ivanova\'s family changed its name

Could her family have had the name before the Czar issued his list? Surely some Russian families had family names before the Czar ordered it. I have a friend who is a Russian jew, and a big B5 fan. He's never mentioned it as a slip-up. I'll have to ask his opinion, and get back if he can shed any light on it.
 
Re: Ivanova\'s family changed its name

Claiming that JMS goofed here... would be a goof.

What determines Ivanova's true origin -- be it Russian, Jewish, both or neither? Surely not names, but her knowledge and self-perception.

The only rule about rules... is people breaking them. Perhaps at troubled times, her family did not consider it wise to publicize their Jewish heritage -- for fear of persecution perhaps?

Moreover, while my knowledge of Russian history does not extend to such detail... I suspect that official family names were created at different times in different parts of the empire.

One cannot prove a goof here.
 
Re: Ivanova\'s family changed its name

I heard recently from a fellow fan that when the Czar ordered all Russians to take last names as a westernization move, he made a separate list for Jews, and the name Ivanov (Ivanoff?) was not on it. So I checked with one of the many Russians in my office, and she confirmed that Ivanova is most definitely *not* a Jewish Russian name. JMS goofed. Alternatively, going with the script as written (meaning that I'm making this up after the fact :) ) the family changed its name during the Soviet era to avoid dealing with anti-Semitism.

How do you know that someone in the Ivanov family tree didn't convert to Judaism sometime between the time of the Czars and 2150?
 
Re: Ivanova\'s family changed its name

I heard recently from a fellow fan that when the Czar ordered all Russians to take last names as a westernization move, he made a separate list for Jews, and the name Ivanov (Ivanoff?) was not on it.

So, we have a uncorroborated statement from one fan, with essentially no details. (When did this happen? Which Czar? Did all the "non-Jewish" Russian surnames that exist today really come from a list the Czar provided? That must have been some list.)

So I checked with one of the many Russians in my office, and she confirmed that Ivanova is most definitely *not* a Jewish Russian name. JMS goofed.

Now we have another uncoroborated statement, this time that "Ivanova" is definitely not a Jewish Russian name. Your friend knows every Jew in Russia? :)

I did a little digging around on the internet, and it appears that Czar Alexander I did indeed impose surnames on Russian Jews in 1804 - continuing a pattern of adopting western customers begun by Peter the Great in the late 1600s. By 1804 many Russians, including Jews, were already using inheritable family names, and most of them followed the familiar patterns of such names elsewhere: occupational names, place names, horitcultural names, patronymics and (less frequently) matronymics. If the non-Jewish Russians were required to adopt surnames by law, then it happened before 1804, and I can find no refernce in either case to anyone's being "forced to chose from a [government-approved] list".

From my research it appears that far from being forced to chose names from a list, most Russians were simply allowed to chose names and register them, whenever they got around to adopting them. To the degree that Jews were treated differently it was in being forbidden to select specifically Jewish names, the old Hebrew and Yiddish-based names they had brought into Russia with them from other lands, and instead to choose good "Russian" names from among those already circulating.

Germany issued a decree in the 18th Century, requiring German and Austrian Jews to adopt German surnames. In 1804, Tsar Alexander I of Russia imposed a similar requirement on the Jews within his realm.
.
Jewish tradition dictated a single name, followed by the name of the father (Moshe ben (son of) Shmuel or Simon bar-Jonah). Some Jews were able to meet the new legal requirements by taking occupation surnames (Goldschmidt), cultural names (Levy, from the tribe of Levites), patronymics (Isaacson), place names, or simply ornamental names chosen for their attractiveness (Lilienthal, from the flower).
GTR Data

Ivanov (and the feminine form "Ivanova") are simply patronymics of "Ivan", a Russian name so common as to be a cliche. (It means "John" and is therefore obviously congate with the Hebrew name.) Any number of Jews could have been called Ivan, like their neighbors, and passed Ivanov on as their family names when the practice became required by law. (BTW, the 1804 law was not the last word on the subject. "1835 a new law (valid until 1917) was passed that stated that each Jew of the Russian Empire must keep forever the hereditary or assumed family name without any change. This indicates that the law of 1804 had not been followed rigorously and that numerous Jews either had not adopted a surname or had changed them once adopted." -- Paikin family genealogy

I don't see where there's anything wrong with Ivanova having the name she does, even without the other excellent suggestions in this thread about name changes, religious conversions and the like.

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: Ivanova\'s family changed its name

How do you know that someone in the Ivanov family tree didn't convert to Judaism sometime between the time of the Czars and 2150?

Or that a guy with the last name Ivanov married a Jewish woman? He may not have converted but under Jewish law all the children including any sons would be Jewish. If the sons chose to marry within their religion, you then have a Jewish branch of the Ivanov family.
 
Re: Ivanova\'s family changed its name

Or that a guy with the last name Ivanov married a Jewish woman?

Exactly.

When I was in high school I knew a couple of families (cousins of each other) who were Catholic (and all of their relatives, that I knew of were also Catholic). Their surname was Juif, which is the the French word for Jew. Now, would you assume that someone made a mistake in writing down their family's surname or that there had been one or more inter-faith marriages somewhere along the line?
 
Re: Ivanova\'s family changed its name

Or that a guy with the last name Ivanov married a Jewish woman?

I'll second that. Because as a former Russian citizen we do have some jewish friends in Russia. Well, the daughter of jewish family married a man who's surname was Arlov. Now her surname is Arlova. So... based on this fact I must agree with Moyra's opinion.
 

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