if sinclair had stayed and sheridan became valen........

**DONOTDELETE** · Dec 4, 2001

i was wondering if sinclair had stayed and sheridan became valen would sinclair have taken all those risks and done all the things that sheridan did against earth ??

he is military , did he think the military had a right to choose civilian goverment ??

isnt that a bit closer to a regime ??

---------------------------------------

------------------
"Your patience is also a weapon, when used properly. We will arrive when we arrive and we will have the weapons we have. You can not win this war through force, you must .. understand your way out of this. Sheridan knows. What remains to be seen is whether he knows that he knows."
-- Lorien to Ivanova in Babylon 5:"Into the Fire"

------------------------visit my website - http://www.babylonfive.net

hypatia · Dec 4, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Simon Healy:
i was wondering if sinclair had stayed and sheridan became valen would sinclair have taken all those risks and done all the things that sheridan did against earth ??

he is military , did he think the military had a right to choose civilian goverment ??

isnt that a bit closer to a regime ??

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was certainly Lochley's opinion, IIRC. I think it shows that JMS writes characters that are never "black or white".

You can't do what Sheridan did without breaking some of the rules.

------------------
"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com

A_Ranger · Dec 4, 2001

I think if you check the Alternative Time LInes thread, you'll find that it was proved that Sheridan and Sinclair had seperate arca and are not interchangable

------------------
We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

Joseph DeMartino · Dec 4, 2001

Had Sinclair stayed a charater somewhat like John Sheridan would have been introduced, to act as military leader during the Shadow War, but Sinclair would still have become Valen. The clues for that were planted in the pilot and all through season one. The "Proto-Sheridan" that JMS was thinking about late in S1, to be introduced in S2, was never intended to become Valen. (Heck, if that had been the plan, JMS could have done it. He just wouldn't have brought Sinclair back.)

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

GKarsEye · Dec 4, 2001

I think JMS' reasoning behind bringing in Sheridan, either to help Sinclair with the war effort or, in the final product, to replace him on the station, was that no man could possibly do everything: run the station, break from earth, defeat the Shadows, lead the Rangers, face Clark, then go back in time to win yet another Shadow War, re-organize an entire alien civilisation, etc. It would be too much for the audience to accept.

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

**DONOTDELETE** · Dec 4, 2001

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td> </td></tr></table>

Doesn't Kosh refer to Sinclair as Valen in "The Gathering"? He even went as far as leaving his encounter suit to shake, what he thougt was, Sinclair's hand. This would indicate to me that JMS always intended for Sinclair to become Valen not anyone else.

------------------

Jomar · Dec 4, 2001

Some fans have held that originally Sinclair was intended to stay with the series until the end and would go back in time in the final episode of year 5.

However JMS has always maintained that a Sheridan-like character would be introduced to go to Z'ha'Dum and fight the Shadow War.

Things would get pretty muddled if the Shadows and Vorlons had gone beyond the Rim in year 4 before Sinclair went back in time to become Valen. He wouldn't need to go back because the present war would be over and already won. Sinclair went back to become Valen in order to preserve the time line so that Sheridan could defeat the Shadows in the present war.

If you start substituting one character for the other the whole story becomes something completely different.

------------------
I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

GKarsEye · Dec 4, 2001

Again, they could still have had Sheridan in the show and kept Sinclair. With Sinclair coordinating the war effort on B5 and Sheridan leading the troops in space, Sinclair would still have become Valen. Sheridan would have been like the character General Ryan would have been.

The only reason I think Sinclair was originally intended to be on for all 5 years is because I can't believe that someone would write a show that changes the hero character in the middle on purpose. You have to have a Kirk, a Picard, a James Bond type guy, to act as an emotional centerpoint for everything. I doubt a writer would change that unless forced to. It's a difficult transition to change captains / commanders. Fortunately, Sinclair was only on for one season.

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

A_Ranger · Dec 4, 2001

GKarsEye, Now your talkign about formalities in story telling. While JMS certainly follows conventional structure(for the purpose of playing fair to his audience), I think we all know that he does not follow formalities that everyone else does (for example: ending the shadow/vorlon war in the beginning of the 4th season? I dont' think anyone else is crazy enough to do that)

As far as the story goes, Sinclair had to leave during the show because he,Delenn, Sheridan, Marcus, Ivonova, and Zathras had to take Babylon 4 back to the past and Sinclar had to become Valen BEFORE Sheridan went to Z'Ha'Dum. Otherwise, the Shadows would have been too strong and B5 would ahve been wiped out, which kinda goes against the story (the series IS called Babylon 5, we kidn of need it to survive). Sinclair had to leave and become Valen in the middle of the series for the story to work

------------------
We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

Galen2005 · Dec 4, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Simon Healy:
i was wondering if sinclair had stayed and sheridan became valen would sinclair have taken all those risks and done all the things that sheridan did against earth ?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But he didn't. He couldn't, because he already hadn't.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> he is military , did he think the military had a right to choose civilian goverment ?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In all likelyhood, were it possible for Sheridan to become Valen, the entire story would be radically different. To a large degree, Valen shaped Minbari civilization -- A different Valen, and Minbari civilization would have been different enough that the things that lead to the Earth-Minbari war would have at the very least been different, and everything else would be different accordingly.

-g

------------------

bakana · Dec 4, 2001

Gee, I guess the posts from JMS where he says that Sinclair was Always intended to leave during season 2 and that the only changes he made were to move it up a few episodes don't mean Anything.

After all, he only Wrote the darn thing.

JMS has been online posting messages about Babylon 5, his plans, intentions and the development process for 10 years.
He's been very upfront about when and why he made changes to the original plans.
There is no reason to assume he'd LIE about this one.

------------------
The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

A_Ranger · Dec 4, 2001

I'm not saying JMS didn't always intend for Sinclair to last the whole series. That isn't the point. We digress. The point is that Sheridan couldn't have become Valen, because that's what the original post was about. Whether Sinclair was meant to last the series or not has no relevence. And even if he was meant to always be in the story, where's JMS quote? Don't say things unless you can back them up.

------------------
We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

**DONOTDELETE** · Dec 4, 2001

The other time Sinclair could have gone back is just after "Into The Fire". Both Babylon stations lead the fight and Babylon 4 goes back in time. This would be in Season 3 or 4. Sheridan then fights Earth.

------------------
Andrew Swallow

RW7427 · Dec 5, 2001

I think the question that Simon is trying to ask is "If Sinclair was in Sheridan's place, would he have done the same as Sheridan in his breaking away from Earth, fighting the Shadows and Pres. Clark?". My guess is that he would still have fought the Shadows and opposed Clark because he would figure it was the right thing to do. Yes, Sinclair was military, as was Sheridan, but I believe he was like Sheridan in that he would stand for what he believed was right. He probably would have wrestled with it a lot more than Sheridan did, but I still think he would have ultimately taken a path similar to that of Sheridan's. He might have tried diplomacy first, unlike Sheridan who tried fighting first. The outcome might have been different, but I believe that Sinclair would have opposed Clark as did Sheridan.

------------------
Lorien: Who are you?
RW: The salad man.
Lorien: Why are you here?
RW: To be the salad ambassador.
Lorien: What do you want?
RW: Everyone to know the joys of salad.
Lorien: Do you have anything worth living for?
RW: Yes, my salad bars.

bakana · Dec 5, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And even if he was meant to always be in the story, where's JMS quote? Don't say things unless you can back them up.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you insist, here are a couple of JMS's quotes:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> ...it will let us get deeper and faster into the meat of the storyline, and intensify the characterizations and relationships.
Sinclair's purpose in the large part of the first section of the story was really to get everyone together ... to start the pieces moving. And now we've got all the players in position.
The whole 24 hours/Line thread was always going to be resolved at the top of year two, because you can't sustain that for more than 1.5 seasons at MOST.
The audience, rightly, won't stand for it.

At that point, that mystery dispensed with (which would lead to other questions), Sinclair kinda faded a bit from the story, because now we have to bring the other players into the foreground.
So if he's going to fade anyway, why have him meandering around?
Why not "absent" him for a time ... and up the stakes for everyone else, and help focus on other aspects?

The story will go where it was always going to go. This much is certain.

jms

---

The Battle of the Line and the hole in Sinclair's mind was always intended as the entry point or trigger to the story.
It's like Frodo being given the Ring in LoTR.
The story isn't about that, that's how we get INTO it.

Frankly, there's no way you can sustain that one element for five years, nor did we ever intend to do so.

The only difference in the resolution of that aspect is this: we had originally intended to resolve the missing 24 hours, and the Battle of the Line, by episode four, season two.
We've simply moved it up 3 eps to the first episode.
Because new players are coming onto the field, in the form of the Shadowmen, and other forces, and we now have to begin turning our attention to new mysteries.

jms <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was On-line in one of the discussion groups JMS frequented Before the Pilot Aired for the first time.
I have the advantage of having read many of his posts when they were first made.

So, yes, I CAN often back up what I say.
So can several other people here.

------------------
The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

Joseph DeMartino · Dec 5, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Gee, I guess the posts from JMS where he says that Sinclair was Always intended to leave during season 2<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well given that there aren't any such quotes that I'm aware of, I guess they don't count. (The ones you provided do not say what you described them as saying. JMS describes moving the solution to the mystery of the missing 24 hours a few episodes forward, not getting rid of Sinclair.)

Certainly the quotations where he talks about "the story of Babylon 5" being "very much the story of Jeffrey Sinclair" and how he saw the need to bring in a character like Sheridan only late in S1, when he knew the focus of the story was going to shift to the Shadow War and Sinclair would temporarily fade into the background (for six or eight episodes) carry more weight. Not to mention his comments about Michael O'Hare's departure, and their discussions. Those make it clear that O'Hare certainly had no idea that his character was supposed to leave in S2. In fact, JMS says that O'Hare's desire to leave was what prompted him to go from a de-emphasis on Sinclair and the introduction of a new, more-or-less equal character to moving Sinclair off the board entirely and introducing a new series lead.

While JMS has always maintained that the essence of the story remained unchanged, and that he got to the same end point for the whole arc that he'd always intended, he never said anything about Sinclair being out of there in year two - or year three, for that matter. (You have to remember that "always" is a pretty elastic term with B5. Was Kosh "always" supposed to be the kind of character he turned out to be? Not if you read the early B5 material where the Vorlons were more like the Centauri, advancing in status and power by assassination, and where Kosh was supposed to be accompanied to B5 by his wife. The show went through many permutations. Maybe by late S1 JMS had decided to wrap up the Sinclair thread by late S3, because he then had an idea of how the story could get to his intended ending - the departure of the hero under mysterious circumstances - by a different route. But I am sure that was not the plan they started shooting The Gathering and got Michael O'Hare to give them an option for a five-year stint on the show, not by a longshot.)

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

Joseph DeMartino · Dec 5, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>However JMS has always maintained that a Sheridan-like character would be introduced to go to Z'ha'Dum and fight the Shadow War.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually what he said was that as he approached the end of S1 and began planning for S2 that the need for a new character became clear. Just as G'Kar's eye said it became implausible for one character to win the Shadow War of c. 1260 A.D., win the present Shadow War, found the IA and become the next thing to a god in the eyes of the Minbari. JMS has said he realized this because nothing he tried along those lines worked. All of this indicates that his original plan was precisely to have Sinclair as the single hero for the full five years, and it was only after production was underway that he had second thought.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Otherwise, the Shadows would have been too strong and B5 would ahve been wiped out, which kinda goes against the story...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only if you assume that the events of "WWE" as shown were always part of the plan. If, on the contrary, "WWE" was a post-facto way to wrap up the Sinclair/Valen thread early and clear the way for Sheridan's story, the whole attack on B5 eight days in the future becomes a justification for the action in that episode.

It is equally plausbile that Jeffery Sinclair would have discovered his destiny as Valen at the very end of the series, and that this is the reason that the "other" Sinclair in "Babylon Squared" looks just about 20 years older than Sinclair circa S1. (This also ties in with Londo's prediction of his own death. I have a feeling that the original plan was to wrap everything up in 2278, 20 years after the start of the show.) Sinclair may have returned to B5 for any number of reasons, and then B4 would have reappeared in sector 14. It would still have been necessary for him to go back in time and become Valen in order for the entire story to happen as it did. The whole saga would then have become circular.

I believe that this was the plan in JMS's mind when he started the series, but that he later changed his plans (as he did in a number of cases. For instance, G'Kar, in The Gathering says his people have no telepaths and puts the fact down to a "genetic oversight." No mention of the Narn telepaths being wiped out.)

And Kosh never addresses Sinclair (or the disguised assassin) as "Entil'Zha Valen" That is supposed to be a "thought balloon", not something that Kosh says aloud. In any even that bit of voice over dialogue did not exist in the original version of The Gathering. JMS has said that it was planned, but that he cut it as a possible spoiler. It was only added in the special edition because he thought that the mystery would be less of a mystery for most viewers by then.

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

GKarsEye · Dec 5, 2001

What he said.

The explanations for things in War Without End seem like they were covering up something else. It does work, logically, but it just doesn't feel right. I can't explain it clearly I guess, but almost everything else in B5 makes so much sense and is so logical and "right," that a lot of elements in War Without End (as well as Talia being Control, but that's another issue) just don't jive, ya dig? Before I became a hardcore B5 nerd, I kind of felt squirmy about it, as if I knew something was fishy.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>for example: ending the shadow/vorlon war in the beginning of the 4th season? I dont' think anyone else is crazy enough to do that) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you're limiting yourself only to TV, then yes, it is odd that he ended the Shadow War so early. However, if you look towards the tradition of story telling in general, it is actually quite common practice.

The story of Hercules does not end with the 12th labor. The Lord of the Rings doesn't end with the defeat of Sauron. The story of King David goes beyond his victories as a warrior king.

Sure, we're used to seeing stories end by grand battles, flashy victories, and happily ever afters. But we're spoiled (I'd say ruined) by pop culture TV and movies, which oversimplify the scope of stories.

The genius of Babylon 5's story structure partly lies in its traditionalism: it harkens back to classical fiction and history practice, rather than standard TV formulae. It's so old, it's new.

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

Recoil · Dec 5, 2001

I have to agree that when I saw War Without End for the first time, something just didn't seem 'right'. A LOT of it really meshed well with the series and Sinclair, but not everything. Namely, his appearing older. Yea, ok, the time flux thing could explain it, who knows, but it still felt as if the Sinclair in Babylon Squared was supposed to have naturally been older (20 years as Joe put it). Also the whole 'I tried to warn them but it happened as I remembered it' was relating to his earlier self and Garibaldi leaving and him trying to radio them saying 'watch your back michael'. That felt totally patched in there, because he was warning Michael not a 'them'. I have to agree with Joe in that it looked as if it was initially supposed to happen at the end of the 20 year cycle and he was supposed to travel back then, not as it did. However all that considered JMS did a GREAT job at changing things to fit in, and personally, which I think many will agree, the story is BETTER the way it is, than the way it initially was supposed to be. Nothing wrong with having a better idea then running with it. And again things fit about %90 other than that odd feeling that 1 or 2 scenes were patched.

------------------
'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

A_Ranger · Dec 5, 2001

Joe, your argument makes sense, but you ahve no quotes to back them up. So its all pretty much silly putty

------------------
We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

if sinclair had stayed and sheridan became valen........

**DONOTDELETE**

Guest

Regular

Regular

Moderator

Regular

**DONOTDELETE**

Guest

Beyond the rim

Regular

Regular

Member

Beyond the rim

Regular

**DONOTDELETE**

Guest

Super Moderator

Beyond the rim

Moderator

Moderator

Regular

Regular

Regular

Share this page

We value your privacy

DONOTDELETE

DONOTDELETE

DONOTDELETE