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Giants playing Chess

L

Lobisome

Member
As all this thread talks about a big thread of B5, aka a BIG surpriso on B5 storyline, I'll treat it all like a spoiler:


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>As we watch last season 3 to first half of 4th we know that Shadows and Vorlon aren't such demon/angel stuff.

They are just players of a game of milenia. Ok, I get the idea and I love it.

But I don't understand why the shadows got so involved in the game. I mean, both sides (Shadows and Vorlon) wanna to convince the other side that their way is the best way to help the youngest races to grow.

Until the big stuff of Shadow War the Vorlon follows this rules: they just MANIPULATE their flock. More or less like telling them/us "brush yer teeth!".

What about the Shadows? They don't just MANIPULATE their flock. They don't tell us "sharpen your teeth to bite better" or even "let's use this knife instead your tiny mouth". They appears as a direct part of the game telling to their flock (the cantauri for example) "tell us who to bite and let's see what a carnage is, dude".

To make it short. Vorlon had rules to not no get involved directly in the war, rules that Shadows did not follow. Or maybe these rules banned only Vorlon-Shadow fights?</font></td></tr></table>



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I'm latin and cursed to loose all my hair in a time... so I'd be some Garibaldi's relative O:)
 
At the time of the "Babylon 5" story, both sides were sliding out of whatever agreements they had. For each step taken by one, another took a step and a half. Escalation of conflict.

That numerous people among the younger races had finally learned about the nature of the conflict... only made it sure that this time, agreements would be broken.

Vorlons build alliances by exploiting religious beliefs and demanding obedience. They offer technology to ensure the package is attractive.

Shadows break alliances by appealing to desires and competition. They offer their services and military support to ensure the package is attractive.

Vorlons create telepaths so the younger races can do their fighting. Shadows stick these telepaths into Shadow vessels.

And so on.
Etc.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 30, 2002).]
 
The vorlons and shadows despite themselves actually did us a favour. By both trying to force their extreme views on the younger races, they created the middle ground that we eventually chose. I'm sure it wasn't intentional, otherwise they wouldn't be so narked at being rejected.

I think that humanity in the future may have adopted an idealogical stance that is somewhere between Lorien and the vorlons, if we use the visual signifiers as indicators. In other words, recognising the importance of law and order whilst respecting the freedom of all sentient beings. I believe we'll make better teachers that way.

It's interesting isn't it, that even after the Shadow War, and the choice of neutrality, the Inter-Stellar Alliance seems to view vorlon tech as good and shadow tech as bad. Not that I'm against this, as long as we find away to design vorlon tech advanced ships from looking too much like garlic (which is what they were designed on)
wink.gif


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Back when I was a kid in Sunday School, Father Minkowski once said: "Given the crucifixion was a terrible thing for anyone to endure, if you could go back in time 2200 years, would you prevent the crucifixion of Christ?" Well after a heated debate, we all agreed the answer was no. The crucifixion was necessary to redeem the world. - Lt. John Matheson "The Needs of Earth"

"We live for the One. We die for the One!"
 
<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>The Shadows also work indirectly, in their way. Their goal is to spread chaos and start wars. Nobody deals with the Shadows, or even know who they are. All anybody ever sees is that nice, polite Mr. Morden, who offers to help. Shadow vessels may destroy a Narn outpost to increase Londo's prestige, but after that it is the ordinary Centauri military that fights the war with the Narn, bombard's their homeworld with mass-drivers and siezes outposts and colonies from neighboring races. The Shadows act as the match, but the younger races are the kindling and the fuel. The Shadows manipulate the younger races into fighting, just as the Vorlons manipulate them into obedience. The Vorlons also sometimes take a direct and active role in events, as when they kill Deathwalker, or influence Delenn during the Battle of the Line. Same game, different strategies.

And they are less concerned with convincing one another, than with convincing the younger races. Whichever side "gets" the majority of the younger races on its side - enough to win a really decisive victory in one of their periodic wars - will be the "winner", and the other will be forced to concede defeat, whether or not their beliefs change.</font></td></tr></table>

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
 
Well, the Vorlons were the ones that believed in order and discipline. The Shadows belived in chaos and distruction, so it would seem to make more sense that the Shadows would be the first to violate the rules of conduct that they and the Vorlons had set up long ago.

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Dulann: You don't solve your problems by hitting them.
David Martel: Yeah, well, it made me feel better.
 
now here's a thought....

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
so the vorlons appear to all the younger races as divine figures.... and they stated that these races were manipulated on a genetic level to accomplish this affect. now the theory is... perhaps all those religions on all those different worlds, earth included, were not used by the vorlons but actually *created* by the vorlons to instil order and obediance? the drakh consider the shadows to be religious figures as well...
</font></td></tr></table>



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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Arrghman:
now here's a thought....

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
so the vorlons appear to all the younger races as divine figures.... and they stated that these races were manipulated on a genetic level to accomplish this affect. now the theory is... perhaps all those religions on all those different worlds, earth included, were not used by the vorlons but actually *created* by the vorlons to instil order and obediance? the drakh consider the shadows to be religious figures as well...
</font></td></tr></table>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Yes, those are pretty much the two interpretations... that the Vorlons *created* the myth of angels, or that they came in and *exploited* it for their own purposes. In my view, the latter seems more logical in some ways.

It has not been stated anywhere that the Vorlons created the angel element; they could easily just have come in and tried to exploit it....

JMS Quotes </font></td></tr></table>



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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it
 
It also comes down to the Shadow's core philospophy - "What do you want?" The Shadows believe in chaos - doing whatever you want. If someone - like Londo - wants the Shadows (even if he doesn't exactly know what he's asking for) to do something, they'll do it as much as they are capable of - including using their ships and people - as long as it also serves thier goals. It was probably never their philosophy to stand behind the scenes and not get involved directly. Of course, one can argue the Vorlons are more involved - as stated above - with direct contact and stated guidence. All anyone sees of the Shadows for some time are their ships - which just happen to be operated by younger races (under cybernetic control), a possible loop-hole in the clause.

I personally think the Vorlons broke any agreement the two had first, that they decided their way was right and had to be enforced with as much destruction of the enemy as possible. I'd argue that the Shadows desire for chaos and disorder would not have had a problem with the Vorlons trying to create order - since that process would just stir up the pot and cause friction anyway. Chaos can have room for anything - especially since every system tends toward chaos (entropy) and order is what you have to work for, what you have to fight for.

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Well, tonight I seem to be referencing the Technomage trilogy a lot.

Regarding the degree of direct interference by the Shadows and the Vorlons, in the mage trilogy we learn that

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> in Shadow cities/bases, such as Thronkh (sp?) and Z'hadum, that Shadows openly (when underground) walk among the younger races.

We also learn that the Shadows will directly punish or control individuals of the younger races. Two examples immediately come to mind: first, the Shadows are transmitting a signal into Mr. Morden's brain to stimulate a sense of euphoria, confidence, and who knows what else; and second, a Shadow zaps Anna Sheridan with those energy ropes from its eyes to control her.</font></td></tr></table>

I got the impression that the Shadows tended to have considerably more direct involvement in smaller details of their operation of the younger races.

Unlike the Vorlons, who would give enigmatic guidance to their younger race allies, the Shadows would give their younger race allies specific instructions.

And from Justin and Mr. Morden, we also get the impression that the Shadows would frag your ass if you do not do what they tell you to do when they do.

Except for the Vorlon's killing Deathwalker, the only example of direct, overt, controlling intervention of the younger races is when the first Kosh zapped Sheridan a couple times for his impudence. Kosh got pissed!

Isn't this interesting? Except for the mage trilogy, the stories that we're talking about now were originally presented years ago. I still enjoy exploring that material. I love this B5 universe!

Eirik

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It never ends; it only changes!

[This message has been edited by eirik (edited January 31, 2002).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Except for the Vorlon's killing Deathwalker, the only example of direct, overt, controlling intervention of the younger races is when the first Kosh zapped Sheridan a couple times for his impudence. Kosh got pissed!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i think sebastian... or jack, whatever you want to call him... would disagree. so would lyta...

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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG
 
Both the Shadows and the Vorlons manipulate the younger races behind the scenes, very rarely getting involved directly. They much prefer to leave the younger races to get on with things themselves, occasionally nudging them in the right direction.

The Shadows and Vorlons only really get involved when their interests are threatened; the Shadows to spark off conflict, and then later (the Long Twilight Struggle) when things looked to fall apart (without the Shadows help there would have been no assault on the Narn Homeworld. The Vorlons in Interludes and Examinations in order to promote order in the younger races.


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"Watch the Shadows, they move when you're not looking..."
 
Is it really necessary for us to put SPOILERS when we're discussing Babylon 5? As someone said, the show ended three years ago. I realize there are still a few newcomers on the SciFi Network but when we're asking hypothetical questions about things that may or may not have happened I find it a bit of a nuisance. It's different with LotR because not everyone has seen it, and it is still very new. What does everyone think?

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I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
 
Well, the Shadows probably didn't see it as getting directly involved themselves because they plugged living beings, such as human telepaths into their ships. Plus they used races like the Centauri and the Drakh to do a lot of their dirty work. They probably saw those as ways to carry out their plan without having to directly be involved themselves.

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Dulann: You don't solve your problems by hitting them.
David Martel: Yeah, well, it made me feel better.
 
I think both Vorlons and Shadows act toghether toward the younger races evolution, after all, wasn't their battle over who was right that made the younger races take the first step? I mean, they were just a part of "the big history" that Lorian(though i'm not sure...) talks about. When Vorlons and Shadows left, Dellen said "now we start making our own magic" they only did what had to be done.

And i have this idea(please don't think i'm crazy) that their conflit was all part of a masterplan, when the younger races finally understand that no side was completely right or wrong, they would stop the periodical wars and leave knowing they were ready to stand alone.

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If you drink wine, you should be able to enjoy the hangover or learn from it, if you can't do that, dont drink wine.
 
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