Face the fact - B5 is dead

[Jan]

Yes, that's right...he's not out knocking on doors. I don't have a problem with that because he's got other stories to tell in other universes and I *like* them.

Me, I don't like stuff to be left hanging, ESPECIALLY something that we got as far into as we did with Crusade. The passive attitude tells me he really isn't all that serious about:

Audience: Out of all your cancelled projects, which one would you like to resume first?

JMS: There's only been a couple. (laughter) He's being mean to me! Umm...Crusade. That's the obvious choice because that one was cut short...it was shot in it's cradle by unfair means and that pisses me off. So I will fix that one way or the other.

Maybe it's self-preservation/avoidance of rejection, I don't know, but it bodes ill for continuation of the Crusade story in any form. To me, that absolutely sucks.

But what, exactly, do you expect him to do about it?? Write it all and put it on the web for us for free? Because unless there's a market, that's what it would take. That risk of being left hanging is the chance you take every time you decide to invest your time and energy in a new series.

Who's restricting him? I just don't want to see him doing seventeen billion other things and being 100% passive with respect to doing anything in the B5 universe. That's the current situation.

Again, what's your plan? JMS has agents for his work. If they found a market for any of the venues that JMS writes in, they'd be sure to let him know.

People will do movies about the inane crap that they think appeals to a lot of people. B5 is not inane crap, and it does not seem to appeal to the mass market, just the fairly serious, sci-fi market. Hence, his argument is not applicable.

He's not arguing, just saying that he's convinced that it'll happen.

See that? Not the first time. First time we ever heard of an attempt, though, right? Probably because it was the first time an attempt actually went to script. From everything I've heard, it's probably just as well that TMoS dead-ended, much as I hated it when it happened. I can wait too, for a movie that's worthy of B5.

Which means it was probably the 2nd time.

Does that matter? We do know that JMS indicated that at least some of the Crusade story was in the TMoS script. And that, imo, is your best avenue for that story if we can't have it on TV. We also know that JMS will keep waiting for a way to tell a story until he does. How? Well, because he's said so in posts and interviews but also from examples like his short story "Say Hello, Mr. Quigley" which was finally published about 12 years after he wrote it.

(As for the actors aging out of their parts as is oft-mentioned, having seen a good many of them this past March at the Rick Biggs event, there's not much to worry about yet).

Seen Claudia since her appearance on the B5 DVDs? On the DVDs, she looked awful, but maybe that was minutes after she had a face lift. <shrug> I tell you, when I first saw her on the DVDs, I was shocked. She was barely recognizable. In 7 years since Season 4, she looked like she aged 30 years and then had some work done immediately before her DVD appearance. Back in late 1995/early1996 (in "Voices of Authority"), when she was in the Great Machine, she was gorgeous. I have never seen a woman, before or since, look that good with her hair pulled back.

Hate to tell you, but she looked on the DVDs exactly like she did in person 3-4 years ago--like somebody without a professional makeup person ensuring perfection. Though I've got to tell you, too, that somebody doing lighting for those interviews must have a serious sadistic streak.

Jan

 

[fisheggs]

I'm curious, what happens to the TMOS script now? Will it be published in any form? Will the plot conciets relating to Crusade be released and if so will they be considered "Canon"? To be a little on-topic, B5 is not dead, just resting.

 

[Jan]

I'm curious, what happens to the TMOS script now? Will it be published in any form? Will the plot conciets relating to Crusade be released and if so will they be considered "Canon"?

Under WGA rules, JMS has the right to do as he wishes with the physical script so there's always the possibility that he might publish it in script form in the future. It can't be made into a movie by somebody else without purchasing it back from the person/company that had commissioned it. Nor could it be turned into a novel without buying it back from the one who commissioned it. By the same token, the script cannot be made into a movie without getting the rights from JMS.

As for what parts of TMoS would be considered canon (or will be in future projects), that would be up to JMS. Given that he said

...the script went through many revisions...

which is very unusual for him, it would be impossible to guess how much or how little the final script was canon which might or might not have a bearing on how willing JMS might be to publish it sometime in the future.

In other words...who knows?
Jan

 

[KoshN]

But what, exactly, do you expect him to do about it?? Write it all and put it on the web for us for free? Because unless there's a market, that's what it would take.

No, knock on doors. Do what he for B5 (Shop it around, if not to networks and studios, then to book publishers.).

Who's restricting him? I just don't want to see him doing seventeen billion other things and being 100% passive with respect to doing anything in the B5 universe. That's the current situation.

Again, what's your plan? JMS has agents for his work. If they found a market for any of the venues that JMS writes in, they'd be sure to let him know.

So he has agents looking for an outlet for the Crusade story? If so, then he's <u>not</u> being 100% passive.

People will do movies about the inane crap that they think appeals to a lot of people. B5 is not inane crap, and it does not seem to appeal to the mass market, just the fairly serious, sci-fi market. Hence, his argument is not applicable. (I should have said "invalid.")

He's not arguing, just saying that he's convinced that it'll happen.

modus ponens, if this then that. He posited a logical argument.

See that? Not the first time. First time we ever heard of an attempt, though, right? Probably because it was the first time an attempt actually went to script. From everything I've heard, it's probably just as well that TMoS dead-ended, much as I hated it when it happened. I can wait too, for a movie that's worthy of B5.

Which means it was probably the 2nd time.

Does that matter? We do know that JMS indicated that at least some of the Crusade story was in the TMoS script. And that, imo, is your best avenue for that story if we can't have it on TV. We also know that JMS will keep waiting for a way to tell a story until he does. How? Well, because he's said so in posts and interviews but also from examples like his short story "Say Hello, Mr. Quigley" which was finally published about 12 years after he wrote it.

IMO, <u>if</u> he can't get it on TV, the best and most likely alternative is <u>a series of novels.</u> Feature films are like trying to win the lottery for B5. Chances are slim, very freaking slim, that one will ever go to production without Warner Brothers backing, assuming one of us doesn't win the lottery and selflessly bankroll it.

(As for the actors aging out of their parts as is oft-mentioned, having seen a good many of them this past March at the Rick Biggs event, there's not much to worry about yet).

Seen Claudia since her appearance on the B5 DVDs? On the DVDs, she looked awful, but maybe that was minutes after she had a face lift. <shrug> I tell you, when I first saw her on the DVDs, I was shocked. She was barely recognizable. In 7 years since Season 4, she looked like she aged 30 years and then had some work done immediately before her DVD appearance. Back in late 1995/early1996 (in "Voices of Authority"), when she was in the Great Machine, she was gorgeous. I have never seen a woman, before or since, look that good with her hair pulled back.

Hate to tell you, but she looked on the DVDs exactly like she did in person 3-4 years ago--like somebody without a professional makeup person ensuring perfection. Though I've got to tell you, too, that somebody doing lighting for those interviews must have a serious sadistic streak.

Too bad Warner Brothers couldn't have ponied up for a professional makeup person. After all, they weren't paying anybody for the commentaries and are reaping the benefits (increased sales over a bare bones set). Hell, I have all the Laserdiscs that were produced and re-bought the episodes mainly to get the extras.

 

[Les_Greenhalgh]

The situation I think is that the fans are hungry for more B5 but JMS isn't at all fussed. It's a shame but what can we do?

What surprises me, is that Warners haven't looked at the DVD sales and concluded that there's demand for something B5 related, seems obvious to me. E.g Family Guy has been resurected purely as a result of DVD sales and there are rumours of straight to DVD Futurama movies as a result of strong DVD sales. Farscape got it's Peacekeeper Wars.

What did half a billion dollars in DVD sales get us? nowt.

Why can't WB see the demand?

I don't ever think a B5 movie will get of the ground without big studio backing. A Red Dwarf movie has been on the cards for years, but attempt after attempt at independant financing has fallen throught.

 

[KoshN]

What surprises me, is that Warners haven't looked at the DVD sales and concluded that there's demand for something B5 related, seems obvious to me. E.g Family Guy has been resurected purely as a result of DVD sales and there are rumours of straight to DVD Futurama movies as a result of strong DVD sales. Farscape got it's Peacekeeper Wars.

What did half a billion dollars in DVD sales get us? nowt.

Why can't WB see the demand?

Hmmmm.

Because they're frickin' idiots???!

Because they couldn't find their a** with both hands?!


Yeah, that may be it.

Remember, brainiacs from Warner Brothers are the ones who lost all of the Babylon 5 and Crusade CGI files.

 

[Jan]

But what, exactly, do you expect him to do about it?? Write it all and put it on the web for us for free? Because unless there's a market, that's what it would take.

No, knock on doors. Do what he for B5 (Shop it around, if not to networks and studios, then to book publishers.).

Much as we might hate the thought, he's already told the story that was burning in him to tell with B5. Given that B5 almost did him in, quite literallly, I doubt he'll ever repeat the pattern.

So he has agents looking for an outlet for the Crusade story? If so, then he's <u>not</u> being 100% passive.

I don't know if they're actively looking, how could I? I do know that he has agents and that it's their job to try to fill available markets with JMS writing.

By the same token, you've got to remember that JMS doesn't own B5/Crusade the way he did back when he took it around knocking on doors. So if somebody's interested in anything but a feature film, they're going to have to negotiate with WB first and then JMS if they want him to write it.

Does that matter? We do know that JMS indicated that at least some of the Crusade story was in the TMoS script. And that, imo, is your best avenue for that story if we can't have it on TV. We also know that JMS will keep waiting for a way to tell a story until he does. How? Well, because he's said so in posts and interviews but also from examples like his short story "Say Hello, Mr. Quigley" which was finally published about 12 years after he wrote it.

IMO, <u>if</u> he can't get it on TV, the best and most likely alternative is <u>a series of novels.</u> Feature films are like trying to win the lottery for B5. Chances are slim, very freaking slim, that one will ever go to production without Warner Brothers backing, assuming one of us doesn't win the lottery and selflessly bankroll it.

And pretty much as slim for the book market which also has a blockbuster mentality. You know why there aren't more B5 novels/trilogies? Because they didn't sell that well in the first place. We can complain all we want about 'stealth marketing' and all that but the sales figures are the sales figures.

Too bad Warner Brothers couldn't have ponied up for a professional makeup person. After all, they weren't paying anybody for the commentaries and are reaping the benefits (increased sales over a bare bones set). Hell, I have all the Laserdiscs that were produced and re-bought the episodes mainly to get the extras.

I agree completely. I think it's shameful that so much value is added and the studios get it for free.

Jan

 

[Jade Jaguar]

B5 is in somewhat better shape than a Norwegian Blue.

 

[KoshN]

But what, exactly, do you expect him to do about it?? Write it all and put it on the web for us for free? Because unless there's a market, that's what it would take.

No, knock on doors. Do what he for B5 (Shop it around, if not to networks and studios, then to book publishers.).

Much as we might hate the thought, he's already told the story that was burning in him to tell with B5. Given that B5 almost did him in, quite literallly, I doubt he'll ever repeat the pattern.

What?! What almost did him in was writing almost all the scripts and exec. producing the show. With Crusade, he was <u>not</u> going to write all of the scripts.

So he has agents looking for an outlet for the Crusade story? If so, then he's <u>not</u> being 100% passive.

I don't know if they're actively looking, how could I? I do know that he has agents and that it's their job to try to fill available markets with JMS writing.

Well, let's hope they're actually doing their job.

By the same token, you've got to remember that JMS doesn't own B5/Crusade the way he did back when he took it around knocking on doors. So if somebody's interested in anything but a feature film, they're going to have to negotiate with WB first and then JMS if they want him to write it.

So, it'll take a little more coordination. Doesn't mean that JMS can't take the lead and help move it along, try to get the parties together, etc., ....<u>if</u> he's interested in telling the story.

Does that matter? We do know that JMS indicated that at least some of the Crusade story was in the TMoS script. And that, imo, is your best avenue for that story if we can't have it on TV. We also know that JMS will keep waiting for a way to tell a story until he does. How? Well, because he's said so in posts and interviews but also from examples like his short story "Say Hello, Mr. Quigley" which was finally published about 12 years after he wrote it.

IMO, <u>if</u> he can't get it on TV, the best and most likely alternative is <u>a series of novels.</u> Feature films are like trying to win the lottery for B5. Chances are slim, very freaking slim, that one will ever go to production without Warner Brothers backing, assuming one of us doesn't win the lottery and selflessly bankroll it.

And pretty much as slim for the book market which also has a blockbuster mentality. You know why there aren't more B5 novels/trilogies? Because they didn't sell that well in the first place. We can complain all we want about 'stealth marketing' and all that but the sales figures are the sales figures.

Yeah, publishers like certain TV networks don't have to have any contact with reality. They are free to expect sales or viewership without lifting a finger to advertise. Basically, they all want something for nothing and chicks for free, ....sales without effort. Maybe if Warner Brothers had gotten behind B5 like Paramount gets behind Trek, things could have been different. No, that would require Warner Brothers to lift a finger and take an interest in their own product. Naah, can't have that. Noooooo.

Paramount can come out with TOS and TNG movies, but can Warner Brothers do that for B5? Noooo.

Re. the sales figures for the trilogies, it's too bad we can't get the sales figures and see how far they supposedly fell short.

 

[Jan]

What?! What almost did him in was writing almost all the scripts and exec. producing the show. With Crusade, he was <u>not</u> going to write all of the scripts.

Yep. He wasn't going to write all of the 4th season B5 scripts either. Or all but one of the Season 5 (two, actually-Gut Reactions didn't work out). Probably never intended to write all but 2 of Jeremiah season 2, either...(though that last isn't really fair because iirc, it was requested of him ahead of time). See a trend here?

So, it'll take a little more coordination. Doesn't mean that JMS can't take the lead and help move it along, try to get the parties together, etc., ....<u>if</u> he's interested in telling the story.

He's interested in telling stories. Not just one particular story in one particular universe. He is telling stories. Given the number of projects, I'd say he's probably telling stories pretty much every waking moment. And that's what he is-a writer. Not a deal-maker, not an agent, not any of the other sorts of things that getting TV shows/movies made entails. He only became an Exec. Producer in order to protect his stories. I know you have to know that as well as I do. Why do you keep wanting him to do otherwise?

Yeah, publishers like certain TV networks don't have to have any contact with reality. They are free to expect sales or viewership without lifting a finger to advertise. Basically, they all want something for nothing and chicks for free, ....sales without effort. Maybe if Warner Brothers had gotten behind B5 like Paramount gets behind Trek, things could have been different. No, that would require Warner Brothers to lift a finger and take an interest in their own product. Naah, can't have that. Noooooo.

Reality check here....Paramount cancelled ST and didn't 'get behind' anything except books for many years. And those books did pretty much sell themselves without effort or advertisement unless one of the stars was the one writing it. Of course, they were also pretty bad books for the most part. You know, like 1-6 of the B5 books?

Paramount can come out with TOS and TNG movies, but can Warner Brothers do that for B5? Noooo.

Reality check #2...how many years after Trek had gone off the air did the Motion Picture come out? Add in a few more years before a GOOD Trek movie came out and we're still well within the time-frame of comparing Paramount's "support" to WBs.

But, no...WB probably can't/won't because they have a certain philosphy about theatrical releases that isn't compatible with what we fans or JMS want. They would have gotten behind TMoS if they could have put big stars up as Sheridan, Delenn etc. That sure isn't acceptable to me.

Re. the sales figures for the trilogies, it's too bad we can't get the sales figures and see how far they supposedly fell short.

Doesn't matter. As long as some exec decided they were too low, they were too low. We can rail against it all we want but it's just a waste of energy.

Jan

 

[Mike G]

Meanwhile, Battlestar Galactica gets all the press like it created the concept of "complex human stories" and "well-constructed and dramatic and emotional" stories in sci-fi TV

BSG is what is popular now. Its getting press, because, hey, its POPULAR NOW!! And while they did not by any means invent complex human stories or well constructed dramatic and emotional stories, they are doing a damn good job of it.

Its getting a lot of press because its a hit new show, and media likes to report on that kind of thing. I don't think it has much to do with the fact its a sci-fi show.

And I agree, Bonnie Hammer is full of shit.

 

[Recoil]

I'm going to post my thoughts on this topic, and do so by using the quote from JMSNEWS that Jan posted:

"Are we now reduced to hoping for a book once or twice a decade? Is
there any
reason to have hope for more of what we love so much?
Is Babylon 5, as we know it....dead?"


This question comes up periodically, and I'll give it pretty much the
same answer that I always give...that there is a difference between
*dead* and *complete*.

If a novelist writes a book, and he doesn't write five more books in
that universe, with those characters, is the book dead? Or completed?

When I embarked on B5, I wasn't out to create a franchise, wasn't
looking to springboard this out into a zillion other projects...I
resisted merchandising, and made it clear to all parties that this
would be five seasons, no more. Because that's I figured it would take
me to tell that story. The only thing I asked of the universe was that
I be able to tell the story to its end, and that I not die before
finishing it. That's all.

And somehow, both happened...and I'm happy with that.

I've said it a hundred times before...if something happens to come up
in the B5 universe that's fun to tell, and someone wants to provide a
venue, great...if not, also great. I told the story that I wanted,
needed to tell. When Zack says, in SiL, "We did what we said we were
gonna do, and nobody can ever take that away from us," that was the
author speaking through him.

What I set out to do with that show, I did, and nobody can ever take
that away. I told the story I wanted to tell. Everything else is
lagniappe.

jms

I'm really going to focus on this part:

I've said it a hundred times before...if something happens to come up
in the B5 universe that's fun to tell, and someone wants to provide a
venue, great...if not, also great. I told the story that I wanted...

I agree with that comment 100% when it pretains to BABYLON 5. The story got told. It's done. I don't think any of us dispute that fact. What I disagree with --- and I believe this is the ROOT POINT the person who asked that question was trying to get at --- is the whole "if something comes up thats fun to tell" part.

Something that is fun to tell apparently DID come up. Twice. In the form of CRUSADE and RANGERS (I am talking about his planned story-arc if it became a series here, not the so-so Telemovie). Those AREN'T finished. They were there for the fans to enjoy and anticipate briefly, then snatched away.

So while B5 is complete, Crusade is far from complete, and Rangers never happened.

The question JMS never seems to answer is the one where "Are you ever going to find a way to tell the Crusade story and complete it for the fans, whether it be a in books, comic series, or any other possible media"

That's the question I wish he would answer. We have all heard the "Ive told what I wanted to tell" story. We get it. What about the stuff that was started? That's what the $1,000,000 question is...

 

[Jan]

The question JMS never seems to answer is the one where "Are you ever going to find a way to tell the Crusade story and complete it for the fans, whether it be a in books, comic series, or any other possible media"

That's the question I wish he would answer. We have all heard the "Ive told what I wanted to tell" story. We get it. What about the stuff that was started? That's what the $1,000,000 question is...

That's the part that everybody seems to miss but he has answered it:

...and someone wants to provide a venue...

Somebody's got to provide the means and he's not gonna devote his life to finding that somebody. He also partially answered it at the Wizard World Con:

Q: With TNT and Crusade then apparently with MGM and Jeremiah ___________ have you ever considered establishing your own production company and finishing things to your own satisfaction?

JMS: You really can’t do that. I can have all the production companies that I want but you can’t finish things to your satisfaction unless you’ve got a studio or network to back you up.

Maybe that's not the answer we want but it is an answer.

Jan

 

[KoshN]

What?! What almost did him in was writing almost all the scripts and exec. producing the show. With Crusade, he was <u>not</u> going to write all of the scripts.

Yep. He wasn't going to write all of the 4th season B5 scripts either. Or all but one of the Season 5 (two, actually-Gut Reactions didn't work out). Probably never intended to write all but 2 of Jeremiah season 2, either...(though that last isn't really fair because iirc, it was requested of him ahead of time). See a trend here?

Well, that's one of the reasons why it'd be easier to go with novels. All he has to write is an outline and proof the novels.

So, it'll take a little more coordination. Doesn't mean that JMS can't take the lead and help move it along, try to get the parties together, etc., ....<u>if</u> he's interested in telling the story.

He's interested in telling stories. Not just one particular story in one particular universe. He is telling stories. Given the number of projects, I'd say he's probably telling stories pretty much every waking moment. And that's what he is-a writer. Not a deal-maker, not an agent, not any of the other sorts of things that getting TV shows/movies made entails. He only became an Exec. Producer in order to protect his stories. I know you have to know that as well as I do. Why do you keep wanting him to do otherwise?

Because he became a deal maker of sorts to get B5 made.

Yeah, publishers like certain TV networks don't have to have any contact with reality. They are free to expect sales or viewership without lifting a finger to advertise. Basically, they all want something for nothing and chicks for free, ....sales without effort. Maybe if Warner Brothers had gotten behind B5 like Paramount gets behind Trek, things could have been different. No, that would require Warner Brothers to lift a finger and take an interest in their own product. Naah, can't have that. Noooooo.

Reality check here....Paramount cancelled ST and didn't 'get behind' anything except books for many years. And those books did pretty much sell themselves without effort or advertisement unless one of the stars was the one writing it. Of course, they were also pretty bad books for the most part. You know, like 1-6 of the B5 books?

The MOVIES, damn it. I'm NOT talking about TOS the TV Series.

Paramount can come out with TOS and TNG movies, but can Warner Brothers do that for B5? Noooo.

Reality check #2...how many years after Trek had gone off the air did the Motion Picture come out? Add in a few more years before a GOOD Trek movie came out and we're still well within the time-frame of comparing Paramount's "support" to WBs.

But, no...WB probably can't/won't because they have a certain philosphy about theatrical releases that isn't compatible with what we fans or JMS want. They would have gotten behind TMoS if they could have put big stars up as Sheridan, Delenn etc. That sure isn't acceptable to me.

Hence the difference between Warner Brothers and Paramount. The latter did not replace the TV actors with movie stars. When it comes to Warner Brothers and the Babylon 5 universe, all we get anymore is one damned Catch-22 after the other.

Re. the sales figures for the trilogies, it's too bad we can't get the sales figures and see how far they supposedly fell short.

Doesn't matter. As long as some exec decided they were too low, they were too low. We can rail against it all we want but it's just a waste of energy.

Reminds me a bit of the end of the "Raiders of the Lost Ark" movie.

[Discussing the fate of the Ark]
Maj. Eaton: We have top men working on it now.
Indiana: Who?
Maj. Eaton: Top... men.

There are no top men. I'd bet that the sales figures not being high enough was just some arbitrary decision made by some know-nothing playdough brain.

Well, being as we're surrounded by Catch-22's w.r.t the B5 universe, Warner Brothers, movies, books and TV, I'd say B5 lagniappe is not only really dead, it's really most sincerely dead, 110% dead. .... Meanwhile, Bonnie <expletive deleted> Hammer can spend ~$77 million over the next two years on crap movies. Oh, why the hell am I here, on the Net, and reading anything about The Sci-Fi Channel? Given the fact that on one hand, Crusade can't find any backing or any venue, and on the other hand, The Sci-Fi Channel is going to piss away $77 million on crap movies over the next two years, I must be in Hell.

 

[KoshFan]

Embrace the dark side, KoshN. Join the Firefly fanatics.

 

[vacantlook]

Go Browncoats!

 

[KoshFan]

Preach it, brother!

 

[Za_Ha_Dum]

I agree with that comment 100% when it pretains to BABYLON 5. The story got told. It's done.

Even though I agree most of Recoil´s point of view, I disagree with the quote above.

as long as I know JMS told that he was saving the "Telepath War" (TW) for a feature film. It would be excellent, however we are running out of time, since Walter Koenig is becoming old and he would be one of the most important character in the TW....Unless JMS hire George Lucas to do a CGI of Walter Koenig...

Anyways, I believe all of us feel very frustrated about this matter, since we know B5 has an excellent story and crew, and every month we can see GARBAGE being produced by Hollywood Studios......

 

[KoshN]

Embrace the dark side, KoshN. Join the Firefly fanatics.

Oh, I'll go see "Serenity" when it comes out, but IMHO, Firefly just isn't in the same league as the B5/Crusade universe (ignoring the Rangers pilot). I watched Firefly for the characters and the humor/banter. To me, it's much more of a pure Fantasy than B5 or Crusade. Firefly is kind of an acquired taste. It's a bit of a shock when you first start watching due to the incongruous combination of "Western" and "Sci-Fi" genres, but after awhile, you just ignore that and enjoy the characters and situations.

 

[KoshFan]

It may be an acquired taste, but it's an easily acquired one, from where I stand.

As my dad pointed out, Star Wars was a Western. Firefly's just more up front about it.